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Nicole
04-26-02, 01:12 AM
I was looking at some random online diaries at an online diary site and happened to come across one written by a guy who is quite zealous for the Lord!


Well - he has a lot of zeal - but I started to read through his entries - and it was all God's wrath

Every entry was about how God hated sin and he was going to destroy sin. It was all "you're going to spend an eternity burning for what you've done!" yes, he also said that the righteous would be protected - but everything else - was 100% God's wrath. At first it just ticked me off because my initial reaction was "this is why non-Christians think Christians are hateful." but - then, It just broke my heart.

Here is this guy - who is quoting scripture left and right - and he never even mentions God's love. He never mentions the verse about "and he shall seperate our transgressions as far as the east is from the west." There is no love there at all. And - I just don't know how he goes on each day fearing the wrath of a God he describes. Actually - it doesn't sound like he fears it - he seems rather confident that his place is secured in heaven for tellign everyone else that theirs isn't.

Anyway - point of this thread - what is it that you were/are taught? God's wrath? God's love? both?

because - you can also go overboard on the love side - spouting some ridiculous nonsense that God doesn't care what you do 'cause he loves you and he'll let you do it.

I know my pastor's wife said she grew up just hearing the wrath of God - and it took her a long time to understand that he wasn't sitting up in Heaven with a bag of lightening bolts ready to throw them at you when you messed up.

I've grown up with a balance. I know God loves me unconditionaly- but I know he hates the sin. I know He won't allow that sin to stay there - but, me, the person - He loves beyond measure.

anyway - post away!

Flannel Avenger
04-26-02, 02:14 PM
God is Holy. He cannot tolerate sin. His wrath is righteous anger. He is Holy, sinless, pure and would be justified to destroy us all. It is within His rights to sit in Heaven with a bunch of lightening bolts ready to fry us all, it's what we deserve. Our sin is an affront to God that He has to deal with. But, out of His mercy and love, He was willing for Jesus, who was God incarnate, to die on the cross and pay the price for our sins, thus providing a way out of His wrath.

For those who hear the word of God and do not listen, your guy is right. They are going to be in eternal torment.

Barney
04-26-02, 03:06 PM
i've always been taught about God's love, moreso than his wrath.... but in private study you do see that both are equally as important to be taught.

In one book I read, "The God Who Loves" by John McArthur, he said that we are becoming too soft today, and not enought emphasis is put on the wrath of God?!

I guess in a way he was right....the more you know about Go'd wrath, and the more you come to understand it, the greater his grace appears!

He hates sin, yet loves us sooo much

amazing!

Nicole
04-26-02, 03:14 PM
yeah - I agree that those who reject God's mercy will spend an eternity in hell - I have no disagreement with him there


I guess I just didn't like the way he was presenting it. He was making God out to be completely full of wrath. And - there's more to God than that. Preach God's wrath -fine, it needs to be preached. But stopping there is giving an incomplete view of God, because as you mentioned - he is also a God of Mercy and Grace. Giving us everything we don't deserve and nothing we deserve (lightening bolts ;) )

Breni Sue
04-27-02, 08:50 PM
This guy seems to paint a very one-sided picture of God. Yes, He is a God of wrath. But, if you look at Scripture, everytime people were punished, there were always several warnings from Him beforehand. Why? Because He loved them and wanted them to have a chance to repent. He never really desired to punish them - in fact, it grieved Him deeply. But as Flannel said, He is Holy, and cannot tolerate acts which are not. And since the people refused to repent, He had to punish them accordingly.

Too many folks read the bible and mistake God as this egomaniac who gets a kick out of sending people to hell - that it doesn't matter to Him one way the other if we accept Him or not. But it does matter to Him. We are His children, afterall. If God were truly a God of wrath, He would zap us all dead right now with no warning whatsoever. But He holds back because He loves us, He is willing to give us a chance to change our ways. But it is up to us whether or not we choose to heed His warnings.

To tell the truth, I can't remember a whole lot about what I was taught growing up. My mom always took us to church with her, but we were not really a "religious" (for lack of a better word) family per se. I remember hearing stories about the men in the fiery furnace (I'm not even going to try to spell their names! :p) , Noah's ark, Jesus' birth/resurrection, etc... The overall message (looking back) seemed to be that while God punished those who disobeyed, He still loved them all. Obedience was rewarded, rebellion brought judgement. And I don't remember ever disliking God for it or thinking of Him in a negative way. But sadly, people do get misled into that.

I can see the other side of it too - people being taught that God is all love, love, love. And that if you don't repent, He will still let you into heaven because no loving God wants His children to go to hell. Well, that is partly true - He doesn't want us to go to hell. But just because He loves us doesn't mean we won't receive punishment for rejecting Him.

My 2 cents, for what it's worth. :)

Vinnie
04-28-02, 12:50 AM
He is Holy, and cannot tolerate acts which are not. And since the people refused to repent, He had to punish them accordingly.

Throwing a wrench into the mix:

What about the Holocaust? Surely that was as bad as it can get. Did God step in there? Or did the end of that come from the joint wills of men?

Codger
04-28-02, 02:57 PM
Dear Nicole,

Yes - I knew a guy just like the one you are talking about. However, in a couple decades the Lord changed him significantly.

Of course you guessed it - I'm talking about myself. It's not uncommon for us to go through a legalistic phase, particularly in our early years. Just ignore it, and let the Holy Spirit work on him for awhile - he will change.

Somebody once said that if we only knew how far Christians have already come in their walk - we wouldn't be quite as concerned about how far they have yet to go.

Codger

Nicole
04-28-02, 02:59 PM
yeah- I have to remind myself quite often that I am not the Holy Spirit - and to let Him do his job - I can't change people!


I just follow Him step by step and let Him worry about changing others. I say what He tells me to say - but beyond that - out of my hands!



I like that last quote you had there :)

Flannel Avenger
04-28-02, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by ilgwamh


Throwing a wrench into the mix:

What about the Holocaust? Surely that was as bad as it can get. Did God step in there? Or did the end of that come from the joint wills of men?

Ever since Christ died on the cross, we have been living in the Age of Faith, and God has postponed judBut gement on us. I can give a more complete answer later...

But since this is the age of Faith, then deliverance of the holocaust wasn't going to come by lighting bolts from heaven. However, after WWII Israel was refounded, that's somthing that had been prophecied.

Vinnie
04-28-02, 04:59 PM
But since this is the age of Faith, then deliverance of the holocaust wasn't going to come by lighting bolts from heaven.

For lightning bolts from heaven in this "age of faith" check out Acts chapter 5. I am referring to Ananias and Saphira.

I can give a more complete answer later...

Please do :)

Flannel Avenger
04-28-02, 05:02 PM
The Apostles were specially ordained of God. If you want to argue like that this will very quickly turn into a debate over tounges ;)

Vinnie
04-28-02, 05:06 PM
Define "Apostle". Were Ananias and Saphira Apostles? Were they specially ordained?

I honestly don't see the relevance of tongues right now but maybe I will as you elaborate on it more later ;)

Flannel Avenger
04-28-02, 05:16 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong as I do not have my array of tools for crushing those who dissent with the correct (ie MY) view handy ;) and that includes my Bible. I suppose I could get up and walk all the way across the room, but I'm feeling lazy, and I'm already going to have to wait 'till later to give a complete explanation anyway, so I won't bother now.

Now, as I recall, Ananias and Saphire were the ones that sold their land and then lied about the amount of money they gave the apostles, and God killed them for lying. So, no, they aren't apostles.

This relates to tounges because this act of judgement falls in the same age as the gift of tounges were circulating. God does not smite people like that today for the same reasons tounges died out. So, the same arguments against tounges apply to such a judgement today.

Vinnie
04-28-02, 05:26 PM
Maybe I misinterpreted you. When you said: "postponed judBut gement on us." did you mean humanity as a whole or only Christians?

Now, as I recall, Ananias and Saphire were the ones that sold their land and then lied about the amount of money they gave the apostles, and God killed them for lying. So, no, they aren't apostles.

That is the basic story. My point is that the account seems contradictiory to your statement: Ever since Christ died on the cross, we have been living in the Age of Faith, and God has postponed judBut gement on us.

There wasn't much of a postponement in Acts 5.

Are you saying that Acts 5 did not occur during the age of faith but during the age of tongues? What exactly is the "age of faith" when compared to the "age of tongues"? How do you distinguish between them (aka what sources tell you this?)? You earlier saidd that after Christ's death is the age of faith? Was it tongues or faith.

And I think people today in various churches still claim to speak in tongues. On what do you conclude that the age of tongues is over?

And why did tongues die out? You said the judgement died out there when tongues died out correct? You also seemedto imply it died out for the same reason. What is the reason?

Jesus dies ---> age of tongues ---> age of faith

Is that how you hae it?

Flannel Avenger
04-28-02, 05:40 PM
Alas, I have fallen into the trap of replying without being properly prepared.

Ok, here's how it goes: Jesus dies on the Cross, sins of the elect are forgiven and the age of Faith begins, He rises again, He stays on earth until the Pentacost. (BTW, Definition of Apostle, somebody who saw Christ ressurected. There are 500+ mentioned in the Bible)

At the Pentacost, the Holy Spirit takes over and Spiritual gifts are bestowed as a means of "getting the word out". Prophecy, tounges, discernment, etc, they were ways of verifying the Gospel message. The person with the gift could control it at their will, but eventually, these gifts were no longer bestowed (which is not to say that they are never manifested anymore, just not given as gifts).

So, given that these gifts were active, then it is not inconsitent for the Holy Ghost to make a point about lying to those ordained by God @ Ananiah and Saphira. But the basic rules changed from the Old Testament where God would deliver the Israelites, to where God postpones judgement over all humanity until after the Tribulation (a la the Great White Throne judgement)

Churches that are practicing tounges today are not practicing the same tounges that the early Christians did. Tounges is speaking in an unlearned human language. From my understanding, modern tounges is speaking in gibberish, with most saying it is some type of Angelic language based on a misinterpretation of (I forgot the reference) the passage where Paul talks about being able to speak in the tounges of "Men and Angels", but means nothing without love.

Vinnie
04-28-02, 11:19 PM
Jesus dies on the Cross, sins of the elect are forgiven and the age of Faith begins, He rises again, He stays on earth until the Pentacost. (BTW, Definition of Apostle, somebody who saw Christ ressurected. There are 500+ mentioned in the Bible)

Must an apostle believe in Jesus? Is that part of the definition? How do we know all of the 500+ became professing Christians? Also, where did you get your definition of Apostle from? Acts 1 is my guess but I think you are plucking it from its context. I don't think your view fits with Jesus' definition of an apostle: Luke 6:13 says he designated people apostles before his death and resurrection. There were apostles before the death and resurrection according to this passage.

According to Acts 1 Jesus appeared to these apostles over a period of 40 days after the Rez. He appeared to OTHERS as well. Or is there another passage somewhere I am missing that ties it together?

Look at Acts 1:23-26 So they proposed two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias. 24Then they prayed, "Lord, you know everyone's heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen 25to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs." 26Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.


Of course the "apostle" was later modifeid as Acts 14:14 tells us Paul was an apostle. They also replaced Judas earlier.

You could have been using Paul in Cor 9 as proof that anyone who seen the Risen Christ was an apostle. This doesn't flow from the text IMO. Paul is authenticating his apostleship by saying that he had seen the risen Jesus like other apsotles and that his ministry has produced true spiritual fruit (the Corinthians) which certifies his apostleship.

I think an Apostle is one specially designated by God/Jesus.

At the Pentacost, the Holy Spirit takes over and Spiritual gifts are bestowed as a means of "getting the word out". Prophecy, tounges, discernment, etc, they were ways of verifying the Gospel message. The person with the gift could control it at their will, but eventually, these gifts were no longer bestowed (which is not to say that they are never manifested anymore, just not given as gifts).

The scripture supporting this?

So, given that these gifts were active, then it is not inconsitent for the Holy Ghost to make a point about lying to those ordained by God @ Ananiah and Saphira.

How is it not inconsistent with what you said? Lightning bolts do come from heaven in the age of faith according to this. How do you know the lightning bolts stopped with the death of the last apostle or at the end of the "gifts" era (assuming there was one)? On what do you base this knowledge?

Tounges is speaking in an unlearned human language. From my understanding, modern tounges is speaking in gibberish, with most saying it is some type of Angelic language based on a misinterpretation of (I forgot the reference) the passage where Paul talks about being able to speak in the tounges of "Men and Angels", but means nothing without love.

You mean "Tongues" in the Bible are simply human languages? Okay, no argument here.

Though according to Cor 12:27 ff tongues were not reserved for the apostles. The text doesn't imply the gifts are reserved for people in the first century.

27Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31But eagerly desire the greater gifts. And now I will show you the most excellent way.

Alas, I have fallen into the trap of replying without being properly prepared.

Take your time if you need it ;)

Flannel Avenger
04-29-02, 01:28 PM
Ok, lets start with the Apostle thing. The definition I was using was just how I thought of it in my mind, since I did not have my Big Book of Bible Doctrine handy :D

What I have as the definition of Apostle in my Bible Doctrine Notes is this:

Apostles: individuals directly commisioned by the LORD and given authority over the church (Eph 2:19-20, foundation of the Church)(see also 1 Cor 12:28)

I Cor 13:8, tounges shall cease

The gift of tounges was an evidencial gift and a revelatory gift with the primary purpose being evangelism.

Heb 2:3-4

Acts 2:22

I Cor 14:21-22


And now, on to how this relates to the divine judgement on Ananias and Saphira. It was the work of the Holy Spirit. So are spiritual gifts. The first century was a bit of an anomoly whereas the Church age (which is the age I was referencing as Age of Faith, also could say Age of Grace) is concerned.

Also, this relates to the end times as God has postponed divine judgement on man until after the Millenial Kingdom. (see http://www.geocities.com/SamSmith52/CHIndex.html for a timeline)

hum
05-11-02, 01:19 AM
these gifts were no longer bestowed

I have never found any scripture in the bible that would support this. As a Matter of fact I have been used of The Holy Spirit to operate in some of the gifts.

Flannel Avenger
05-11-02, 10:39 PM
I Corinthians 13:8
Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.

Vinnie
05-11-02, 10:47 PM
Knowledge has been done away with? :confused:

Flannel Avenger
05-11-02, 10:56 PM
Knowledge references the spiritual gift to know hidden or secret things, usually of a non doctrinal nature. Example, Peter with Ananias.

Vinnie
05-11-02, 10:58 PM
you base this exegesis on?

Flannel Avenger
05-11-02, 11:01 PM
I am not a scholar of the spiritual gifts, I only have that definition of knowledge in my notes, and not a lot of information. If you have a better explanation I'd be glad to hear it.

Vinnie
05-11-02, 11:34 PM
I have no explanation of what Paul meant by "knowledge" off the top of my head as I haven't ever dug in and studied it. I am wondering what the evidence of your interporetation is as you advocated the idea. I do advise against basing doctrines off of interpretations of verses one cannot fully justify the interpretation of. I would also say something like "I think" 'Knowledge references the spiritual gift to know hidden or secret things, usually of a non doctrinal nature. Example, Peter with Ananias.' rather than state it in a more certain tone. It would be less misleading that way ;)

Flannel Avenger
05-11-02, 11:41 PM
true enough. But again, I am also a student, not the teacher.

Vinnie
05-12-02, 12:26 AM
Originally posted by Flannel Avenger
true enough. But again, I am also a student, not the teacher.

in a sense, you will be a student your whole life if you study this stuff imo ;)

Flannel Avenger
05-12-02, 07:03 PM
Good observation. I look forward to gloating about being right in heaven, think of it, all eternity with me :D ;)

Vinnie
05-12-02, 07:17 PM
I look forward to gloating about being right in heaven, think of it, all eternity with me

But then there would be eternal conscious punishment in heaven! And the Bible says there will be no tears. So what gives? We have mutually exclusive events here :D :p

Flannel Avenger
05-12-02, 07:20 PM
You just won't be able to cry, no matter how bad it gets :p