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Kristine
03-31-02, 10:40 PM
I'm going to open up a really controversial can of worms by introducing this thread to the forum.

Feminism, the belief system that holds that women are inherently equal to men in all ways, has long been given a bad name by men-bashing pro-abortion so-called-feminists.

But recently, groups like Feminists for Life and Real Women have re-introduced feminisms in a new light. In fact Real Women's motto is "Equal rights, but not at the expense of human rights"

Now feminism is now taking one step further, into the realm of the local church. In many churches women are being ordained as pastors, and congregations are being blessed with God's truth coming out of the mouth of these female vessels.

I'd like to know what the rest of you think of feminism and its role in the modern church. Are churches right to continue excluding women from ministry? When one considers how Bible verses have been taken out of their physical context to keep women 'in their place' in the past (ie: to keep them from being given the right to vote), is it possible that the verses written about women's silence in the church might also be being used against women, while ignoring the cultural texture which deffined the appropriate interpretation of Paul's words?

I have some thoughts on this matter, but first I would like to hear all of yours.

Kristine

Breni Sue
04-01-02, 12:00 AM
I think this will be OK as long as we don't cross the line between discussion and debate, as this really isn't a forum for debate. ;) Topics such as this have a tendency to get rather emotional, but I would really love to see some Christian opinions on this without it becoming too divisive. :)

Ashwee
04-01-02, 12:32 AM
My opinion on this is a very complicated opinion indeed.
I'm not very femininest. In fact, I'm not femininest at all (I hope that I'm spelling this right, but If I'm not... who cares.) I believe that women in a way are lesser to men. After all, we were created second, not first. Also, there is a verse, 1 Timothy 2:12-14, it reads- "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner." This is why I believe that women shouldnt be pastors, or priests, because by being a pastoress or a priestess, then you would be teaching over a man. I have a teen study Bible, and below this passage at the bottom of the page, it has about 2 paragraphs on this subject- and this is what it reads-
Do you ever wonder: "Is it OK to be female?" "What is my role in the church?" Some Bible passages (I Corinthians 11; Ephesians 5; 1 Timothy 2) may make you think, "Paul had something against women." And then you learn more about the world in which Paul lived. Paul spoke a revolutionary message about women. When so many in his day said, "Women are inferior," Paul declard, "Men and women are one in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:28). Where so many said, "Women must not be educated," Paul declared, "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission" (1 Timothy 2:11).
Though interpretations of this passage differ, Christians can agree on two conclusions: Women are spiritually gifted members (not inferior members) of the body of Christ, the church. All of us, men and women, must stand quietly before God, submitting to his Word and to each other in love.
As for how there is that little group of people who are using a version of the Bible that took out any references to gender, that IMO, is wrong. God created 2 different genders for a reason, and had the book written like it was for a reason. There are so many important and valuable lessons to be learned from verses in the Bible that use gender. I dont really know what all they changed about it, but I'm strongly against it.
I dont know if I really ever stated this, but on my opinion on women being equal... I think that we're not. I think that there are jobs out there that men are better qualified to do than women. I, personally, dont think that women should be on the police force. To all those up in a frenzy about it, men naturally have more upper body strength than women, and that is something that being an officer requires a lot of.

Kristine
04-01-02, 01:02 AM
Jedidiah,

Thanks for your comments. I'm curious as to how far you would take that reasoning.

Are you able to accurately generalize that NO women are gifted with enough upper body force to be on a police force? I know some pretty large-bodied women who could cream my boyfriend in an instant and would make a much better security enforcement than he would.

But back to the spiritual issue at hand: I'd love it if you could comment on the following scenario:

Suppose you have two people, both highly trained in Biblical doctrines, both with a great deal of spiritual discernment and both with great public speaking skills.
If both study the same passage and preach the exact same doctinal truth (perhaps even word for word) from the word of God....
how exactly is it that one's message is worthy of being used to edify and teach a congregation; while the other's message, (despite being word for word the truth of the first person's message) is unworthy and unhearable, simply because her sexual organs differ from that of the first speaker?


Does the holy spirit speak only through male vessels? Are women lesser Christians who are not blessed with shareable wisdom, as their male counter-parts are? What do you then make of the verse that talks about their being neither Jew nor Gentile, male nor female in Christ (Galatians 3:28)?

God bless,
Kristine

Ashwee
04-01-02, 01:08 AM
Im sure some women have more upper body strength than some men, but I'm just saying that the majority of women shouldnt be on the force.

The reason I believe that women shouldnt be preachers in church is that verse. I may interpret it different than others though. That doesnt mean though that women shouldnt testify the love, and witness.

selah
04-01-02, 01:19 AM
I believe that women in a way are lesser to men. After all, we were created second, not first.

And yet, humans were created last in general. Does your line of thinking make us "lesser" than the plants, the animals, etc.? Actually that's not the case, we are the ones made in God's image, the stewards and protectors, the ones in charge of the other living things on the earth. If you want to go by the order things were created, wouldn't that make men lesser than women?? :rolleyes:

(I hope that sarcasm was acceptable, my apologies if not)

If you believe women can't/shouldn't be pastors today, can you explain why God would have allowed them to be priestesess and prophetesses in Biblical times? Junia (Romans 16:7) and Anna (Luke 2:36) come to mind right off the bat.

I think we have to be very careful when taking three or four out-of-context verses and basing entire theological doctrines on them. All manner of things can be justified in that way, slavery coming to mind primarily (Col 3:22). This is why I believe it is of utmost importance that:

1) women be treated as equals to men, while acknowledging the differences God created between the genders; and

2) no matter what a woman's call; be it pastor, teacher, friend, mother, wife, or himalayan basket weaver; no one should stand in the way of God's call in her life.

Peace,
Kathryn

Vinnie
04-01-02, 02:01 AM
We had a discussion about this in ODD. I really don't wish to rehash everything myself but I was happy with my newfound exegesis :D

I think we need to realize something. God wants to reveal Himself meaningfully to people and preachers preach to people. Given the historical situation, chances are that a woman preaching in the first century might not have had the same impact as she would have today. The well was poisioned in the first century so to speak. In logic we have a fallacy that goes by the name of "poisioning the well."

Description of Poisoning the Well
This sort of "reasoning" involves trying to discredit what a person might later claim by presenting unfavorable information (be it true or false) about the person. This "argument" has the following form:

1. Unfavorable information (be it true or false) about person A is presented.
2. Therefore any claims person A makes will be false. http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/poisoning-the-well.html

The unfavorable information can be that a teacher was a female or that a preacher was a female in the first century. I don't think authority positions and teaching and preachings were the norm of women in the day.

I think the well was poisioned and for this reason we see cultural statements and the like in Paul's writing. I think this is the only consistnt way to harmonize Paul's own words without resorting to saying he contradicted himself.

There are quite a few passages in different books stating that women are to be quiet and submissive. To state that different roles aren't given in the Bible is not an accurate statement. I believe certian things were just cultural.

From another thread:

What do we make of Pet 3:4?

Verse 4 Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight.

The quiet aspect appears again.

Verse 7 Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers.

My thoughts on the Corinthians passage being debated now is that Paul should not be understood as teaching universal silence for women in church but I think they (as a whole) are given a subordinate role here. Not universal cause they can pray and phrophecy and stuff. Didn't Paul not list the women somewhere as eyewitnesses of the risen Christ when listing the reported sightings? He did this because the eyewitness testimony of women was not accepted right?

In a later reply:

Women are said to be the weaker species and are to be treated as such. So equality for both men and women doesn't seem to be a Biblical concept. Someone tell that to the feminists ;)

I believe women are described as inferior.

1 Tim 2:11 "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety. "

You see the quietness aspect here as well.

Even later Kyrie asked:

"But what about Galatians 3:28?"

One thought is that they are contradictory. Paul let his culture get the best of him. Another is that Paul thought it best to make concessions to certain socially accepted practices just like he did with SLAVERY.

I deny universal silence is taught because of verses like 1 Cor 11:5. "And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head-it is just as though her head were shaved. " But I still think women are given a subordinate role.

I mean, its not like a woman who walking into a church sees the roof on fire and is not expected to say anything because she can't speak EVER in church. That is not what I get. Women could speak in some cases (pray and phrophecy) but these were exceptions rather than the rule. The general practice was for women to remain silent in church as we see in 1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace. As in all the congregations of the saints, 34 women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

Anyways, here is my view: Just as Paul condoned or made concessions to the practice of slavery (slaves submit to your maters) he did the same with the socially accepted role of women. I do not think he meant universal silence, however, the meaning seems pretty clear. Given his writings as a whole I think this fits the best. Paul said there is neither slave nor free but all are one in Christ but he did say for slaves to obey their masters as well. He said their is neither male nor female but for females to live out their culturally accepted roles. That is how I personally reconcile the relevant passages.

I think that culture casted women in an inferior light.

Vinnie
04-01-02, 02:04 AM
I think we have to be very careful when taking three or four out-of-context verses and basing entire theological doctrines on them. All manner of things can be justified in that way, slavery coming to mind primarily (Col 3:22). This is why I believe it is of utmost importance that:

Likewise, we need to be careful that politically correct views don't compromise our objectivity and leave us with eisegetical interpretations of the text.

Vinnie
04-01-02, 02:15 AM
2) no matter what a woman's call; be it pastor, teacher, friend, mother, wife, or himalayan basket weaver; no one should stand in the way of God's call in her life.

I agree but that doesn't work as an argument because some will argue there is no empircal way to determine what God's call is. Some feel a calling from God to blow people up. A woman might feel a calling to be a pstor from God while a male feels a calling from God to expose this doctrine as false.

1) women be treated as equals to men, while acknowledging the differences God created between the genders; and

What about :

Peter 3 Verse 7 Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers.

Women are said to be the weaker species and are to be treated as such. So equality for both men and women in some verses doesn't seem to be a Biblical concept.

Nicole
04-01-02, 06:27 AM
This is an interesting thread :)

I'm pretty much not a feminist. As far as women pastors - I don't think that women should be the top authority in the church - which in most cases is the senior pastor. I have no problem however with a woman standing up and talking to the congregation as a whole on occasion, because in that scenario she is still under the authority of the pastor. I know many many women who are awesome women of God - who have so much wisdom in them and I learn so much from them, that doesn't mean they are called to be pastors though.

I've always viewed the genders as different - God created us differently. The male is to be the leader in the household, the wife is to submit to him. At the same time he loves and cheishes her just as Christ loved the church. It seems only natural that if the husband is designed as the head of the family, that a male should also be in the authority position within a church.

That's my basic views on the subject. I think to many times the political correctness of today's society makes us want to interpret the Bible in a different way.

selah
04-01-02, 01:50 PM
I agree but that doesn't work as an argument because some will argue there is no empircal way to determine what God's call is. Some feel a calling from God to blow people up. A woman might feel a calling to be a pstor from God while a male feels a calling from God to expose this doctrine as false.


That's an interesting point. Here's my take on it. I don't believe that I can be the judge of what God is calling someone else to do. I think that if a person believed that God had commanded them to kill someone, or do something very harmful that I personally couldn't see having been in any way a possible call from God, I may urge that person to reconsider. But my philosophy is largely "live and let live" when it comes to callings. I have gotten caught up way too much in judgement of others myself to be able to, with a clear conscience, say that I know definitively what is and is not a person's call. I believe in letting what is between a person and God be between that person and God.

If a man were truly called by God to keep a woman from a pastoral position, then fine. But the problem I have is when a woman is called to a pastoral position, and men (and sometimes other women) in the church prevent her from it--not because of a specific calling from God but because of a culturally held view. I have felt the tremendous frustration of being called to something and having a person prevent me from fulfilling that calling. It was not because I am a woman, but I don't really think the reason matters--I'm talking about anyone preventing someone else from their call. It's a tremendously frustrating and painful experience (but God did teach me patience and reliance on him, as he always brings good :) )

What about :

Peter 3 Verse 7 Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers.

Women are said to be the weaker species and are to be treated as such. So equality for both men and women in some verses doesn't seem to be a Biblical concept.

I have a problem with the terms "inferior" and "lesser". These terms imply that women are "lacking" in something rather than different.

The difference is subtle but here's what I think, in sort of algebraic terms. I believe that the way God sees us is something like this:

men = x + y
women = x + z

where, x is our humanity, y is the compilation of male characteristics and responsibilities, and z is the compliation of female characteristics and responsibilities. The problem is, it often gets interpreted this way:

men = x + y
women = x

Here women are simply lacking. x is our humanity, y is strength, wisdom, the inherent abilities to be leaders, etc. Women are not equal but different, they are simply "less" than men.

But, we are not less intelligent, less worthy, less holy, less righteous, less able to discern God's voice, or any of the other things that countless men have told me when citing this verse. Of course there are differences, I am fully willing to acknowledge that. In general, men are physically stronger than women, and women more gentle and nurturing than men. God has asked men to take Y responsibilities in marriage and women to take Z responsibilities. But Y is not better or superior to Z in any way; they are different but equally valuable to God.

This doctrine can be very hurtful when it's taken too far--and what frustrates me is how blurry the line is. I've seen so many women be emotionally abused, and I have been as well, by probably completely well-intentioned men of God. My personal belief is that if we're gonna err on one side, it should be too much equality, rather than abuse. What do you think?

Ashwee
04-01-02, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by heavenlyprincess
This is an interesting thread :)

I'm pretty much not a feminist. As far as women pastors - I don't think that women should be the top authority in the church - which in most cases is the senior pastor. I have no problem however with a woman standing up and talking to the congregation as a whole on occasion, because in that scenario she is still under the authority of the pastor. I know many many women who are awesome women of God - who have so much wisdom in them and I learn so much from them, that doesn't mean they are called to be pastors though.

I've always viewed the genders as different - God created us differently. The male is to be the leader in the household, the wife is to submit to him. At the same time he loves and cheishes her just as Christ loved the church. It seems only natural that if the husband is designed as the head of the family, that a male should also be in the authority position within a church.

That's my basic views on the subject. I think to many times the political correctness of today's society makes us want to interpret the Bible in a different way.

Thats exactly what I feel, when I said not to be pastors or whatever, I meant the senior pastor.

b
04-01-02, 05:58 PM
i think that leaders should be neither one nor the other specifically, but together, a combination. as in marriage, planning, leading, and glorifiying God. for human kind was made TOGETHER in the image of God.

i think that men AND women should be what God calls them to be whether that be preacher, teacher, working at home, office worker, poilce officer, or clown!

God knows best, so who are we to stifle what God calls?! our concern should not be with who is preaching, but with what is being preached - ultimately glorifying God, whether it be a man or woman, we both have God's equal opportunity for salvation, and calling others to Him aswell. after all, we all have brains!

trixiepup
04-02-02, 12:52 AM
i never thought of myself as being a feminist, but i have recently come to the conclusion that i am.

i agree with the idea that men and women should have the same opportunities available to them in social, political, and economic realms.

i think jobs and educational opportunities should be available to women who are qualified and interested in those experiences. i don't think it is right that women are around 50% of the US population and only received the right to vote less than 100 years ago.

i don't think it is fair that women are shoved into low paying jobs in factories because they are somehow more suited to sew for 14 hours straight, 7 days a week without benefits while receiving a wage that is below subsistence.

i don't think it is right that a woman can be raped, and her entire character is brought into question, saying that she must have asked for it in some way.

the same goes for sexual harassment. not to mention the fact that the man's character is never as highly scrutinized.

i don't think it is right that health studies are usually done with only male subjects. women's bodies are different than men's, and our bodies respond differently. however, scientific research doesn't even acknowledge this fact when they only study men. if i were having a heart attack, i'd rather be a man, because the technology had been designed specifically to help my gender.

i don't think it is right that women's bodies are treated as diseases. why do doctors encourage women past child bearing age to have hysterectomies to solve whatever problem is plaguing them? why aren't men told to have their testicles removed once they reach a certain age? they aren't gonna want kids past 45/50ish, you should just remove 'em. why is the removal of the uterus seen as no big deal, done all the time, no real use past childbearing, better off without it but the removal of testicles is not seen in the same light?

it saddens me to hear women say they aren't feminists. all of the freedoms you have today were given to you by the women in our pasts. without their struggles and pains, you probably wouldn't be where you are today. i know i wouldn't.

please read a book about women's history before you dismiss the idea of being a feminist.

Breni Sue
04-02-02, 04:37 AM
I don't think it is right that women's bodies are treated as diseases. why do doctors encourage women past child bearing age to have hysterectomies to solve whatever problem is plaguing them? why aren't men told to have their testicles removed once they reach a certain age? they aren't gonna want kids past 45/50ish, you should just remove 'em. why is the removal of the uterus seen as no big deal, done all the time, no real use past childbearing, better off without it but the removal of testicles is not seen in the same light? Because there are more things that can go wrong health-wise for a woman's uterus. I don't believe it has anything to do with sexism.it saddens me to hear women say they aren't feminists.I personally have always disliked the term "feminist". If anything, I would be more likely to call myself an equalist. And while I do think that women should have the same opportunities as men, there are some things that women are simply not cut out to do.

Aa for as women being pastors, this is something I have gone back and forth with and thought a lot about. God's Word says it all though - we are "equal" in mind and spirit, but as far as roles, we are most certainly different. That's not say that a woman cannot have an important role in the Church, minister to people or have a huge spiritual impact on the lives of others. The bible gives wonderful examples of women taking on leadership roles - Deborah, Ruth, Naomi (I know there are more, but it is late and I am too tired to look them up right now! ;) ) But when it comes to the Church, the Word states that the man is to be the head, the main authority, so to speak.

Just my thoughts, for what it's worth. :)

Orpheus42
04-02-02, 09:29 AM
The question to ask yourself, before you get upset over woment today not wanting to call themselves "feminists", is what are the reasons people are not wanting to call themselves feminists. You might examine the modern feminist agenda, as opposed to feminist agenda of the past, and find that it's a term that means something different than what it did in the past.

I'll post some stuff about the Pauline verses that are often used to try and "put women in their place" (the words of a very liberal professor here at Harlaxton) later, though it might be MUCH later 'cause I have crazy tons of stuff going on right now and I'm going to Scotland for a week and a half soon (anyone who wants to comment on that should do it in another thread, hint hint ;)).

Peace, Love, and Jesus Christ,

Jason

Multimom
04-02-02, 03:33 PM
While I won't address the actual thread, if we deny the right of women in the church we silence women like:

Beth Moore
Marge Caldwell
Joyce Meyers
Hettie Lou Brooks
Marilyn Hickie

My oh my what a loss that would be.

iluvsnowboardn
04-02-02, 11:01 PM
I think that feminisim has gone too far. Woman are expecting to be treated exactly like men, and they get mad at people who don't treat them that way. What ever happened to being feminine and being proud of being a woman? Frankly, women and men should be treated differently. Women are physically not as strong as men, in most cases. Which is just one small point. We are different and should be treated differently. A while ago, feminists were trying to pass a law that would bring about a law which stated that in order to be "equal" men and women would have to share the same public restroom. That is not an issue of equality, but of morality. Men and women are different. they should be treated differently.

I guess I am sort of a feminist in a way. A lot more to say on this, but don't have time right now.

Multimom
04-03-02, 09:09 AM
EEEEEeeeeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwwww
YuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuccccccccccccccKKKKKKK


Co-Ed Bathrooms? Have they lost their minds? I have absolutely no desire to enter the restroom and be confonted with the vision of a man standing at a urinal. Multimom shudders with disgust.

Breni Sue
04-03-02, 11:55 AM
:rofl: I have to 2nd that one! :eek:

Anne
04-03-02, 12:41 PM
Some other points to consider about feminism that not very many people have really thought through:

1) Feminists (especially todays) have shown by their demands and their agenda that women should be ASHAMED of being women. They deny differences between the sexes and corrupt what God intended for good ie. that 'helpmeet' really means 'completer'. That a womans strengths compliment man's weaknesses and vise versa.

2) That men don't deserve honor. That they are really lesser than women. What the heck kind of example is this setting for our boys? It is our sons who will be men in a few short years.

3) They have pushed and pushed for abortion rights, they have made it possible for women to literally murder their own children. They say it is okay for a women to be permiscuous (sp?) and get pregnant 2,4,6,8,10-20 times out of wedlock and kill the 'inconvenience'.

4) They make some women feel as though they are foolish if they want families and to be stay at home moms. In essence they say 'women aren't complete if they are just moms and wives.

Feminism is not something to be honored. It is a slight to families and children everywhere. It is a lack of respect for traditional families and a slighting voice hidden behind an 'equal rights' facade. It is nothing more than an immoral, divisive, obnoxious vice of satan to corrupt what God created for His glory and our good.

Unfortunately, many people use the Bible to prop up their stubborn and ugly agenda. Christians and Feminists alike. Many Christian men use it to 'push' their wives into a slave like mentality forgetting, of course, that they are to love and cherish their wives like Christ does the church. Feminists use the Bible to curse and slight Christianity because they didn't take the time to study and really learn the Hebrew/Greek.

I fully believe that women should and can have successful ministries, just like men. But, that both sexes need to keep their priorities straight.
#1 God
#2 Family/Marriage
#3 Ministry

God calls many, many people of all colors, sexes and ages to serve him. He has used donkeys, prostitutes, theives, tax collectors, adulterers, murderers. He will use whoever is WILLING. He honors people who are willing to serve Him, He honors them by using them for His Glory.

So, after my big lecture :) I think the most important thing is to study the Word and see what God has to say about these things instead of making snap judgements and assuming things. When I was a young Christian I had issues with the whole 'women submit thing' until I studied it and learned they why's and wherefores.

God Bless You All,
Anne

b
04-03-02, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by Anne


1) Feminists (especially todays) have shown by their demands and their agenda that women should be ASHAMED of being women. They deny differences between the sexes and corrupt what God intended for good ie. that 'helpmeet' really means 'completer'. That a womans strengths compliment man's weaknesses and vise versa.

4) They make some women feel as though they are foolish if they want families and to be stay at home moms. In essence they say 'women aren't complete if they are just moms and wives.


i agree that there are alot of feminists, and pro women's rights movements who have gone too far, making some feel like they shouldn't be just at home mom's, but there are actually various levels, and types of femisist movements within society. that doesn't make them right, i know that, but the less extreme values of some of them i agree with.

i don't believe that just because women are arguing that they want equal opportunities, it is degrading men, or showing women that they shouldn't be feminine.

i am SO thankful that i am a woman. if anything, knowing that men are no better, and no superior, just DIFFERENT, in God's plan, has made me embrace being a woman even more. some feminist movements i think are driven purely by hurt and hatred for the abuse that has occured and still sometimes occurs, and that's awful. but it's no reason to dismiss all feministic viewpoints, within Christian reason.

i realise that God made men and women to be different, but as you said, God calls all types of people (and animals) for His Glory. therefore, i see no reason not to petition for the chance to do what God has called each person to. whether it be at home parent or president - man or woman.


Feminism is not something to be honored. It is a slight to families and children everywhere. It is a lack of respect for traditional families and a slighting voice hidden behind an 'equal rights' facade. It is nothing more than an immoral, divisive, obnoxious vice of satan to corrupt what God created for His glory and our good.


men and women are built for ideally different things, but i think it's important to show children that they can do whatever they are called to do by God, period, regardless of their sex.

i personally am looking forward to embracing my femininity and becoming a mom when i am a little older, but i like to know that my sex does not mean that that is my only oportunity. it does not make me feel inferior to have that desire to be a mom, and stay at home. i believe that it is a blessing to have that chance. all i am saying is that for women who do not have that calling, or desire to raise children, or even marry, a good fair opportunity is there for them instead, in which they can follow God's plan in.

i am glad to be living in this day and age when it comes to womens rights. we are blessed to be in the position to actually have a say, have a vote, and have our opinions listened to.

there is nothing wrong with old fashioned families, but at the same time, i think its a blessing that women are now having the chance to stop their opression caused by SOME men taking advantage of their wives, and daughters.

now it is up to us as Christian women to embrace our feminine qualities that God has bestowed upon us, and do what He has called us to do, whatever it is.

it is also up to us to not let OURSELVES take advantage of our growing chance to have equal oportunities. after all men and women, are both equally sinful in nature, so after petitioning to have the equal chances we should not abuse them.

in an ideal world, who knows, what it would be like?! all we have to go on is God's desires and plans for us. it is now up to us to humble ourselves, listen to Him, embrace Him, His Word; and lose our sinful pride and greedy desires, but to just pray about it, and accept, either way.

God Bless you.
your sister in Him.
b
xx

iluvsnowboardn
04-03-02, 04:17 PM
LOL, well, thank goodness the co-ed bathroom law didn't pass. But here's another thought. God asked men and women to do exactly what is hardest for us. He asked women to be submissive to their husbands, which will be hard for me when the time comes, and I'm sure I'm not the only one wh is still kinda struggling w/ it, and he asked men to provide for their families and protect their wives. I'm not a guy, so I don't know hwo they think, but most guys always think of themselves first, they always want and usually get the biggest and best of everything, but here God asks them to give the biggest and best to someone else, and even though they are the head of the family, to treat everyone w/ respect and not be like a dictator. That all.

selah
04-03-02, 04:46 PM
that 'helpmeet' really means 'completer'. That a womans strengths compliment man's weaknesses and vise versa.


First I doubt any Feminist would say that men and women are needed to complete each other. Quite the opposite in that they strongly believe each of us is complete on our own (which I also agree with). I think a better word would be "complimenter" as in, we are complimentary genders--and that does lead to the conclusion that women's strengths of nurturing and gentless balance the men's strengths of leadership, physical strength, etc. What's wrong with this view? I actually think this is true. Are you saying that women have no strengths to speak of, and men have all the strengths?

Another point ... the Strong's reference for the word "helpmeet", as found on the ilovejesus.com "Search the Bible" is:

05828 `ezer {ay'-zer}

from 05826; TWOT - 1598a; n m

AV - help 19, help meet 2; 21

1) help, succour
1a) help, succour
1b) one who helps

It's interesting to note that the same word is actually used to describe God in several verses, including the ones below, and in many other psalms.

Deu 33:26-29
Psalm 33:20
Psalm 70:5
Hsa 13:9

So I think with this information, it's hard to use that verse as evidence that women are supposed to be submissive to men, as we can't take that definition and then apply it to God as being submissive to man. I'm not saying that there is no Biblical evidence we can gather for the relationship between men and women, just this one doesn't seem to hold up.

Orpheus42
04-03-02, 04:56 PM
You might want to define what you mean by not being submissive, just like I would expect someone to define what they meant by submitting as wife as per Paul's statement. I don't think you're saying something radically unbiblical, but I can see how it might be interpreted that way and I'd like to try and head off a collision before it happens ;)

Peace, Love, and Jesus Christ,

Jason

b
04-03-02, 05:24 PM
the dictionary definition of submission is...

'to yield (e.g. oneself, one's will, to another, his will, his wishes). to offer to another for acceptance or an opinion. humble behaviour...'

this seems to me to be the right way to be in a marriage, whether you are the husband or wife.

to love is to live in submission to your partner, but i don't think that it is necessary to specify which sex should submit because in marriage, love is submission to the marriage partner, in marriage you are one. so both man and wife need to submit to make the marriage work.

of course if either party abuses the submission of their partner, it's not good, infact that's a whole other issue.

however, if you are unmarried, i don't think it necessary to submit as a woman to men just because of your sex.

so i guess that not submitting would mean not taking a man's opinion to be right, based simply on the fact that he is a man and therefore should know better than you as a woman. that's definately stupid. i think not submitting means weighing up opinions equally whether they be from man or woman.

submission is needed in the Christian faith to every person that you meet in some way because you should think of other's feelings (to love your neighbour as yourself). but that doesn't mean that you should throw away every opinion as a woman any more than a man.

man and woman TOGETHER represent and bring glory to God. neither is better, merely different.

b
xx

Nicole
04-03-02, 05:35 PM
I agree that both the husband and wife should be involved in decision making and all that stuff - both of their opinions need to come into play and everything. However, what about when they can talk until they are blue in the face and not reach an agreement on a decision that has to be made - what then? In my mind - that's when the wife takes her command to submit to her husband and says, "I know that you love me and you love God and you desire what's best - so I'm going to submit to you and we're gonna go with your decision." Then of course if he's wrong she get's to tell him "I told you so." ;)

Anne
04-03-02, 08:05 PM
You know, I was just thinking about this whole issue. I have come to a conclusion. I think it is all about honor: honoring others, honoring God and honoring ourselves. Radical feminists generally don't honor others. They fight for their own rights, wants etc. Instead of thinking about what is best for other people they think about what they want.

It is an interesting topic. I have never really thought about christians being feminists although there seems to be lots of them out there. I suppose it is all in the wording. Maybe instead of being called Christian Feminists (which doesn't have that great a first impression) these women should think up a new, better name. Something that says they want to serve Christ to their full potential and calling and not be hampered by others.


I firmly believe that women should preach, have churches, ministries etc. whatever God is instructing them to do. Please don't get me wrong. I just think there are better ways to go about things. Instead of demanding and whining about these things they should be prayed about and God should be trusted to cause changes to come about. Unless God tells us to demand and whine then that is a whole different story :p

God Bless!:)
Love Anne

b
04-04-02, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by heavenlyprincess
I agree that both the husband and wife should be involved in decision making and all that stuff - both of their opinions need to come into play and everything. However, what about when they can talk until they are blue in the face and not reach an agreement on a decision that has to be made - what then? In my mind - that's when the wife takes her command to submit to her husband and says, "I know that you love me and you love God and you desire what's best - so I'm going to submit to you and we're gonna go with your decision." Then of course if he's wrong she get's to tell him "I told you so." ;)

i agree, sometimes, there comes a point when neither party budges, but why wouldn't the woman be wanting what is best? why shouldn't the man back down because he knows that she loves him, and God and wants what's best?!

do you see what i mean? why should men have that? why is it not the woman. there is no difference logically!

no offence meant nicole, this subject kinda gets to me a bit.


You know, I was just thinking about this whole issue. I have come to a conclusion. I think it is all about honor: honoring others, honoring God and honoring ourselves. Radical feminists generally don't honor others. They fight for their own rights, wants etc. Instead of thinking about what is best for other people they think about what they want.

i agree. but not totally about the radical feminist thing. i think that we shouldn't just brush off all their motives just because they are so extreme. you have to think about their reasons. there is no excuse for hatred, but for some non Christian women who have experienced abuse, and lack of respect, we should recognise their pain, and try to help them to see the way they are going about it is wrong.
not all of what SOME feminists campaign for is selfish and filled with hate. after all, i wouldn't call the suffrogettes (however you spell that) filled with hate. they were pretty radical in their thinking. they campaigned and won me the right to vote as an English woman. i am thankful to them for that.



I suppose it is all in the wording. Maybe instead of being called Christian Feminists (which doesn't have that great a first impression) these women should think up a new, better name. Something that says they want to serve Christ to their full potential and calling and not be hampered by others.

i kinda think you're right actually. i don't think that using the term 'Christian feminist' mightn't give the right impression. maybe we could call ourselves 'Christian campainers for equality'. doesn't quite roll off the tongue as well though:D


Instead of demanding and whining about these things they should be prayed about and God should be trusted to cause changes to come about. Unless God tells us to demand and whine then that is a whole different story

i agree. i think it is easy to go too far with these things. i think i often do, but at the end of the day i dont' think that standing up for women and our rights is whining. of course it would be stupid to just go around making derogatory comments just for the sake of it. but sometimes there is a need for women to put their point of view in.

thank you all for talking about this subject, it's really interesting seeing all the different points of view.

God Bless from
b
xx

Nicole
04-04-02, 02:26 PM
Originally posted by b


i agree, sometimes, there comes a point when neither party budges, but why wouldn't the woman be wanting what is best? why shouldn't the man back down because he knows that she loves him, and God and wants what's best?!

do you see what i mean? why should men have that? why is it not the woman. there is no difference logically!

no offence meant nicole, this subject kinda gets to me a bit.



It's very possible that the women is wanting what is best - and that she desires to do what God wants as well.


The Bible tells women to sumbit to thier husbands. The Bible says men are the head of the household as Christ is the head of the Church.

I'm sure you are famaliar with the Ephesians 5 passage about husbands and wives. There is a verse that says submit to each other. But then, it goes on to say that women are to submit to their husbands. God set up a standard for the family, and He decided the husband would be the head.

Breni Sue
04-05-02, 03:31 AM
Sorry for not sticking with this discussion, guys! I have some thoughts to add, but they will have to wait 'till tomorrow! ;)

BTW, great stuff so far!

Kristine
04-17-02, 04:11 AM
Wow! I have got to stop being so busy! Look at all I missed since I was last here. I'm really glad to see all this great discussion going on. Since it seems to have slowed down, I'd like to kick it up again.

I just want to say before I forget that to everyone here, no matter what your current views are on women in ministry, I highly recommend you purchase (or order from your library) this book:
10 Lies the Church tells Women
by J. Lee Grady
ISBN 0-88419-737-9

This fresh perspective on the issue (written by a male pastor for those who currently doubt women's credibility) dives right into history to give us the scene in which Paul's letters to the Corinthians and to Timothy would have been written; shows us how the Bible has been used over the years to abuse women; and perhaps most interestingly, Grady shares with his readers the stories of female leaders in Biblical times, and women Jesus went out of His way to include in His ministry despite social stigma.

Featured Biblical women include those whose stories are often overlooked or ignored: the prophetess Deborah; the apostle Junia; Mary who sat and learned at Jesus' feet; Mary of Bethany; Miriam (Moses' sister and co-leader of Isreal); Huldad, prophetess in 2 Kings whom the spiritual leaders went to for a word from the Lord; Phoebe, refered by Paul as a 'diakonon' - Greek for deacon and same word used to describe Stephen & Philip; Priscilla, Philip's daughters who were prophetesses.... etc

Furthermore, this book highlights some more women God has used for great ministry in the past. Multimom named some but here are some more: Amy Carmichael, missionary to India, Bertha Smith whose preaching in China sparked a revival still felt there fifty years latter, and the Great Bible teacher Henrietta Mears who led a Bible study with a young man named Bill Bright who later went on to start Campus Crusade for Christ and lead an estimated 147 million to Christ. Not to mention Salvation Army founder Catherine Booth, international Bible teacher Corrie ten Boom, or Melody Green, wife of the late Keith Green who now runs Last Days Ministries and touches lives across this country every day.

Aside from Biblically breaking down the '10 Lies' (which I won't spoil by listing here) this book is a real refresher on what it means to be a Christian and most importantly, what it really means to be a woman of God.

I'd highly urge you to pick up the book when you get the chance. Again, it's worth the read no matter where you currently stand on the whole woman in ministry question.

I was raised Brethren (with the head-covering and all - short of Mennonite, it doesn't get any more conservative) so I didn't come at this with a biased perspective. But what a blessing this book has been on my life, and I trust, will be on yours too.

Kristine