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HelenSL
03-10-02, 06:52 AM
Hi everyone, Hi Vinnie especially - I'm so glad you're ok! :)

I remember about the hospital time thing from my C-sections :eek: My husband and I are agreed that you have to be very sick not to mind being in the hospital! :D

Anyway, I wrote this for the local newspaper and they printed it this week - the title is theirs that they gave it after I wrote it. This copy of it is off my site:

Caught Between Two Views of Jesus: A Modern Meditation (http://home.att.net/~shmildenhall/writings/course.html)

love
Helen

Orpheus42
03-10-02, 04:42 PM
The methods of the Jesus Seminar are highly flawed. John Dominic Crossan is either academically ignorant or blatantly dishonest in his scholarship.

I wish I had more time to expound on that, perhaps I'll be able to do so later when ODD comes back.

HelenSL
03-10-02, 06:21 PM
Originally posted by Orpheus42
The methods of the Jesus Seminar are highly flawed. John Dominic Crossan is either academically ignorant or blatantly dishonest in his scholarship.

Maybe so, but I have learned some things from what he writes about Jesus, nevertheless, that I have found helpful.

Once they narrow down to the bits they actually accept, they say quite insightful things about them, I find - at times :).

I wish I had more time to expound on that, perhaps I'll be able to do so later when ODD comes back.

Jason, I'm glad to infer from your and Vinnie's comments, that ODD is planned to return sometime. That certainly would be a good place to discuss this, imo.

I wasn't intending to 'push' these issues on a fellowship board. I just wanted to mention it, in case anyone I knew here wanted to read it. :)

love
Helen

svensky
03-11-02, 01:55 AM
Once they narrow down to the bits they actually accept, they say quite insightful things about them, I find - at times
The question of course is, How can you trust anything they say, when you can see how shoddy there scholarship is in some areas ?

It is like i've seen people trying to claim the bible teaches a flat earth by using a quote from a vision daniel had. Clearly what is described in a recollection from a dream/vision isn't applicable to the argument over wether the bible teaches a flat earth or not. So anybody doing such a thing, has any credibility called into question. Either they are to stupid to be able to take things in proper context (obvious in this case) or they are being intentionally misleading.

The jesus seminar seems to be similar is its applicability, but much slicker in there presentation.

Jason

Alladin
03-11-02, 03:42 AM
Hi Helen,

Long time no speak:wah: . I enjoyed your writing.
I must say I have really been inspired by the writings of
Jesus Seminar members like Robert Funk and Marcus Borg.
I think they present a powerful message with integrity and academic rigour. I don't agree with everything they say - mostly because I don't have access to resources that prove or deny some of their claims but for me their writings (Spong as well) give clear expression to my own walk of faith in many ways.
I know they're not for everyone for many reasons but at this stage of my journey of faith I find them encouraging.
Cheers,

Alladin

HelenSL
03-11-02, 04:35 AM
Originally posted by svensky

The question of course is, How can you trust anything they say, when you can see how shoddy their scholarship is in some areas ?

Because I'm not an all-or-nothing person? Because I don't assume that they are 'perfect' in their scholarship? Because if I used that standard across the board I'd also throw out what Christians write?

Actually though, 'trust' is not the right word. I do not stake my life on what they say. I merely read it and think about whether it expands my own understanding of Jesus' mission and message. Some of what they say definitely has. Bible-believing Christians can be too narrow at times, I find, in how they look at Jesus, to see his whole vision (I believe).

It is like i've seen people trying to claim the bible teaches a flat earth by using a quote from a vision daniel had. Clearly what is described in a recollection from a dream/vision isn't applicable to the argument over wether the bible teaches a flat earth or not. So anybody doing such a thing, has any credibility called into question. Either they are to stupid to be able to take things in proper context (obvious in this case) or they are being intentionally misleading.

Yes but if so then you have to also apply that to people who think the earth is only some thousands of years old and people who think a man could really walk on water and come back alive again, don't you?

I suspect you're not applying it as critically to those with whom you agree, as you do to those with whom you do not agree.

The jesus seminar seems to be similar is its applicability, but much slicker in there presentation.

Oh, I know some very slick Christians.

This course was not at all slickly presented btw. Thus the focus was on the course content. It was much more like going to an academic lecture series than to a church class at a Bible-believing church.

Did you ever attend any 'slick' academic courses? I didn't... :)

love
Helen

HelenSL
03-11-02, 05:10 AM
Originally posted by Alladin
Hi Helen,

Long time no speak:wah:

Likewise! It's not you, it's the ongoing struggle not to be on the Internet all the time. I was delighted to see you'd replied to my thread... :)

I enjoyed your writing.

Thanks :).

I must say I have really been inspired by the writings of
Jesus Seminar members like Robert Funk and Marcus Borg.
I think they present a powerful message with integrity and academic rigour. I don't agree with everything they say - mostly because I don't have access to resources that prove or deny some of their claims but for me their writings (Spong as well) give clear expression to my own walk of faith in many ways.
I know they're not for everyone for many reasons but at this stage of my journey of faith I find them encouraging.

I do understand (as you would know) and I personally don't think it's possible to prove much about what happened 2,000 years ago. So whatever one believes or disbelieves about it is based on assumptions and faith.

What I have learned about the Jesus Seminar in the last year is more about their motives and the depth of their research. I understand their claims and what moves them to do what they do much better than I did and for that I'm thankful.

I found Spong personally helpful and encouraging for reasons I'm not going to go into, here.

Cheers,

You too :)

love
Helen

Orpheus42
03-11-02, 09:36 AM
The study of history is not based on certainty ;)

It is theoretically possible that a discovery could be made tomorrow that could turn over everything we thought we knew about a fairly major event- something like say Lincoln's assassination. However, the plausibility of this is low. That is what historians deal with- plausibilities, not certainties. Ok, lecture over ;)

In light of reading my first post in this thread, I realize that I completely forgot to address that I did in fact think your article was well-written and I enjoyed it, even though I don't entirely agree with all the content.

:)

Peace, Love, and Jesus Christ,

Jason

HelenSL
03-11-02, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by Orpheus42
The study of history is not based on certainty ;)

It is theoretically possible that a discovery could be made tomorrow that could turn over everything we thought we knew about a fairly major event- something like say Lincoln's assassination. However, the plausibility of this is low. That is what historians deal with- plausibilities, not certainties. Ok, lecture over ;)

Indeed...that's why, in the course, I sometimes asked what something was based on. To see how speculative it was :D. For example, Q is totally a 'reconstructiion' although after a while it sounds almost as if it's a document they have...

But Bible-believing Christians are similar in the way they have a set of assumptions and they don't spell them out everytime they say something.

In light of reading my first post in this thread, I realize that I completely forgot to address that I did in fact think your article was well-written and I enjoyed it, even though I don't entirely agree with all the content.

:)

Thanks for adding that :)

That's generally how I feel when I read good books, actually! (That I enjoyed them and found them interesting but I didn't necessarily agree with everything they said)

Peace, Love, and Jesus Christ,

You too :)

love
Helen

Vinnie
03-14-02, 08:50 PM
Hi Helen :)