PDA

View Full Version : Women's Place In the Church.


Codger
03-04-02, 08:51 AM
Dear ILJ,

Do you think that women are in their rightful place in the Church today? It seems that most of our Biblical perspective on this theme in the past has been drawn from just two passages in the Writings of St. Paul – both of which are difficult to understand - especially the passage in 1 Timothy. I am posting them here for your convenience.

1TI 2:11-15
A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety. (NIV)

1 Cor. 14:34-38
... Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 35And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. 36What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? 37If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. 38But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant. (KJV)

I know there are a lot of different practices and teaching going around these days on this subject, but I just wanted to know where some of you are at in your current understanding of this subject. Do you ignore these passages because you feel they are relegated to that particular historical period? Or do you have a different understanding of them?; or does your Church affiliation strictly enforce them?

I’m not sure that I would like the ODD board (If it comes back) – would rather just discuss issues than debate them. Don’t care much for the more combative debate/argumentative forum. Information interchange is fine with me.

Larry

Multimom
03-04-02, 09:00 AM
In our church, our Pastor's wife preaches quite often, however she is under submission of her husband. She preaches as he gives her that allowance.

While my husband and I both serve in leadership positions (he is the Minister of Student Affairs) I remain in submission to him.

I do still feel (mainly because of my Baptist rearing) that it causes difficulties within the church body if the pastor of the church is a woman and is not under the authority of another.

Catholic
03-04-02, 04:16 PM
Aside from the passages you mentioned, one would have to also consider the fact that Jesus' apostles were all men, despite the fact that he had many faithful disciples who were women.

I guess I put more emphasis on that fact more than others because of the issue of Apostolic Succession, but that's another topic and it is not my intention to lead astray this thread.

Codger
03-05-02, 12:14 PM
LeAnn,

God seems to be big on leadership; and I think has appointed us to an assigned role as male and female. In former times this was more critical than it is today from a sheer physical strength aspect of the male compared to the female. But don't you think that in any Church organization we should all have someone over us, or a peer to cover us so we have some accountability and mentoring. This helps to keep us from becoming a successful target of the enemy.

Liza,
There is a debate about men censuring the historical record of any references about the participation of women in the Church. One point is that of Junia - called an Apostle in the New Testament. In our day the female name Junia has been changed to Junias in most translations which is a male rendering of the name. The King James since 1611 carried the female name Junia for almost 400 years. The NASB also has a footnote to the name Junias saying “Or Junia - Fem”

Romans 16:7 (KJV)
Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

Those who argue for the female name say there is no historical record of the male name of Junias. Is this because of male dominance of the historical records? Are we men simply unwilling to recognize any vestige of female leadership in Church history? I wonder what the truth is.

Larry

trixiepup
03-05-02, 04:29 PM
my own opinion on this topic is that women can be better leaders than men. a lot of management programs focus on a more 'feminine' approach to leadership where the goal is to get everyone to use compromise to reach an agreement. the 'masculine' approach to leadership tends to be more of an 'i'll get my way whether you like it or not' method.

i think good leadership skills are taught or learned and are not some essential part of a male or female. i don't think that there is a leadership gene that is exclusively on the y chromosome.

i think that only allowing men to be in leadership positions reinforces that women are inherently inferior than men and must be protected by men. i think a covert part of this problem is that men don't really want to give up the power positions in church and in society as a whole.

i think that around 10% or less of the fortune 500 companies are headed by women...and i'm sure that number isn't low because there aren't any qualified women out there.

Caretaker
03-05-02, 04:58 PM
Acts 18:

24
And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.
25
This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.
26
And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.
27
And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:
28
For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.


Dear Ones in Christ;

I love the passage in refence to Aquilla and Priscilla, (the same whom Paul had stayed with while tentmaking), they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly. They expounded meaning both taught this man of God. There is a passage which reads that there is neither Jew nor Greek, neither bond nor free, neither male nor female, for we are all one in Christ Jesus,(Gal. 3:28) I think the important thing is the call from God to the position and the accountability, as well as the annointing.

May God bless.

Codger
03-06-02, 11:26 AM
Dear Trixiepup and Drew,

One of my wife’s pet peeves over the years is the territorialism of men in leadership. The need to “wet” in every corner and then ultimately control the situation within those boundaries. You may find this unusual, but I always liked the realistic leadership style portrayed by Patrick Stewart as the fictional si-fi character Jon Luc Picard in Star Trek - TNG. He objectively gathered all of the input from his staff and then gave any input equal consideration before making his final decisions.

You are right – compromise is a realistic element of leadership because in most situations you need to create a win-win situation to be successful in business and as a leader in general. We just saw this yesterday in the federal decision to put tariffs on steel – a difficult decision with many elements all pulling in different directions – it was also a difficult compromise.

The Bible is so believable because it has such a ring of truth about it - like in the case of the passage that Drew cited. It sounds like a real life situation - unlike books from other religions that I have read which have this fictional, humanistic, fabricated feel about them.

Unfortunately, our Biblical record is not complete in the sense that it is a written text so the tone of voice and the inflection of the writer are obviously missing. I think this is the case with the passage in 1 Corinthians.

1 Cor. 14:34-37 (KJV)
…Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. 36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? 37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

The best explanation that I have heard is - St. Paul is being sarcastic – which he often was. He is believed to be mocking or parroting the words of someone who was speaking in the Corinthian Church. This person’s words were probably transmitted to Paul via a lost letter.

34 “Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.” 35 ”And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.”

I took the liberty of changing the translation for our purposes here – I added quotation marks to the text of vs 34-35 to indicate that Paul is quoting the words of someone in the Corinthian Church. These words cannot be those of Paul – can you imagine him saying the phrase “As also saith the Law”? Besides, where in the Law of Moses does it command women to be silent? It had to be in their Oral Law which was man made. And if this interpretation is correct – he was plenty hot about this issue of people in the Church imposing the Jewish Oral Law on the New Covenant believers.

The King James and Amplified Translations inset the word “What” at the beginning of Vs. 36. What is the word “What” there for? It is an expression of outrage at the quotation he just stated. Then he adds his correction directed to the unnamed person in vs 36-37. Obviously he didn’t want to destroy them - just correct them. And so his ongoing struggle with the Judiazers was to last for the rest of his days.

When you look at these verses in a sarcastic light - they have just exactly the opposite meaning of what they seem to be saying otherwise. This view seems to be more compatible with the spirit of other writings of St. Paul as well.

Well I better stop rambling and let you go. I like this board - haven't even gotten so much as one bloody nose yet. :-)

Larry

iluvsnowboardn
03-07-02, 02:30 PM
Let me just start out by saying, that I am a a teen-age girl, so I'm speaking from a femanine(sp?) point of view. In my Baptist church, we've had prayer mettings were men and women both pray in a mixed congregation. There's even a reference to that in the Bible somewhere which is talking about a prayer meeting and how both men and women took active part in it. I don't exactly know where it's found, but I can find it if anybody asks. We also have a testimony time where men and women both speak. I do believe ladies are capable of being prachers, but God wanted men to be in authority, and I do have to respect and obey that. That all.