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Hook
02-18-02, 10:16 AM
How do legalism and the words "Fallen from Grace" lead Christians into a guilt ridden bondage?

What sin can one commit that would make them 'fall from grace' or undo Christ's sacrifice for them? What sin is so great that it is not covered by God's grace?

lostsoul
02-18-02, 11:28 AM
I believe nothing. I honestly believe God will forgive you regardless of what you do... even with murder and rape.

svensky
02-18-02, 01:32 PM
Originally posted by Hook
How do legalism and the words "Fallen from Grace" lead Christians into a guilt ridden bondage?

What sin can one commit that would make them 'fall from grace' or undo Christ's sacrifice for them? What sin is so great that it is not covered by God's grace?
I dont think christians can fall from grace in that sense, but they can jump.

Jason

selah
02-18-02, 01:59 PM
So, Jason, I believe the question is, what would constitute a Christian "jumping" from grace? What sin or condition causes us to be so separate from God that a once saved person is no longer redeemed?

In_Doubt
02-18-02, 08:31 PM
A sin that seperates you from God is called a mortal sin. It is a sin that you commit which has two qualities: It is a really bad thing, i.e. murder, rape, and you did it with full knowledge it was bad, and you are unrepentant.

So, a sin that is so great it can not be covered by God's grace? That would be a sin you commit in order to leave God's grace. You are trying to do an evil act. You are willfully going against God's will - God wants to save you, it is you who refuses.

svensky
02-18-02, 08:59 PM
Originally posted by kipepeo

So, Jason, I believe the question is, what would constitute a Christian "jumping" from grace? What sin or condition causes us to be so separate from God that a once saved person is no longer redeemed?

A prelude to the question you ask is, can a christian become "unsaved" (or fall away as it is commonly termed, at least where I live).

I think they can. Hebrews warns against it, and so do other verses, so I figure it must be possible.

So in light of that assumption (must be true or else this doesn't make sense), christians can get out from under grace.

It is not something they will do (like rape or murder or steal etc etc etc), but it is the heart that says, "Get lost god, I dont need/want you any more!!!!!!!" that will casue someone to get out from under grace (Does that make sense?)

God will never let the person go, they cant fall as such, but God, I believe, will honour a persons request (demand?) to leave being under grace. So in effect they jump.

Does that clear up the way I see it ?



Jason

E-Nygma
02-18-02, 10:45 PM
How many sins must one do to loose their salvation? Assuming one could.

In_Doubt
02-18-02, 11:17 PM
Originally posted by E-Nygma
How many sins must one do to loose their salvation? Assuming one could.

43,985,719,801

Or

1

Have fun

selah
02-19-02, 01:48 AM
Thanks for the clarification, Jason. I do understand your position better. At this point I have not formulated anything remotely solid in my own mind regarding this--it's still one of those things I'm discerning. But your input has been helpful in my understanding!

Breni Sue
02-19-02, 01:52 AM
Actually, the only kind of sin that could ever cause one to separate themselves from God would be an unrepented sin.

ILoveApologetics
02-19-02, 03:13 AM
I'll answer with a Bible quote. :) John 10: 27-29 "27 'My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 'My Father, who has given {them} to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch {them} out of the Father's hand.'"Now some people would say that those who accept God and then reject Him lose their salvation. I would say that either they never had it to begin with, that is to say that they were not sincere in their confession of Jesus as Lord, or they are merely unrepentant in their sins. The latter of the two cases would not cause someone to lose their salvation. We all have unrepented sin in our lives. As long as we live on this earth in these fallible human bodies, we will have sin in our lives. If Jesus says that noone can snatch His sheep from His hand, would that not also include ourselves trying to pry ourselves out of God's hand? Sure, we won't experience the fullness of God's grace by trying to go it alone, but then again, haven't we all done exactly that? If it is true that trying to go it alone causes one to lose one's salvation, then I lose my salvation every time I sin. We all start out in the state of being out of God's hand when we are not Christians, but once we come into the Good Shepard's fold, we can never leave. Sure, we can wander off to the darkest edges of the fold and get really close to the edge, but God's door is one way.

E-Nygma
02-19-02, 10:55 AM
I would assume that the "no one" who is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand includes myself. Or, do I not fit in the catagory of someone?

So, if I could "jump" out of the Father's hand Jesus' statement about no one would not be accurate.

E-Nygma
02-19-02, 10:57 AM
Originally posted by Kyrie Eleison
Actually, the only kind of sin that could ever cause one to separate themselves from God would be an unrepented sin.

I bet Adam was tremendously repentant for his one sin, but he still lost his eternal abode.

Breni Sue
02-20-02, 12:49 AM
Did he? He may have been banished from the Garden, but we cannot say with all certainty that he actually lost his real eternal abode! ;)

E-Nygma
02-20-02, 10:52 AM
You also forget about Moses. It was through his one sin that he was not allowed to enter into the promise land, but could only view it from afar.
Do you think he was unrepentant?

My point is that if we could, it would only take one sin to lose it, regardless if one is repentant, or not.

Let's look at STD's, or pregnancy. Does one not suffer the consequences of their single sin just because one repents?

svensky
02-20-02, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by E-Nygma
You also forget about Moses. It was through his one sin that he was not allowed to enter into the promise land, but could only view it from afar.
Do you think he was unrepentant?

My point is that if we could, it would only take one sin to lose it, regardless if one is repentant, or not.

Let's look at STD's, or pregnancy. Does one not suffer the consequences of their single sin just because one repents?
Sin has consequences, this doesn't mean one can not be forgiven for sin.

Its the difference between the idea of, Every person punished for there own sin, and the sins of the father being visted on the children to the 4th generation.

Jason

cujo95
02-20-02, 11:13 PM
Hello Hook,

(1) It is impossible for someone who has received salvation by faith in Jesus Christ to "fall from grace." (John 10:28-29, Rom 8:38-39)

(2) There is no sin that can cause us who have believed Christ as our Savior to "fall from grace." And that is because ALL our sins are already taken away and forgiven once-and-for-all-time, to be remembered no more, thanks to Christ finished work on the cross.

(3) There is no sin that we as believers have ever committed or ever will commit that is not already covered by the shed blood of of Jesus Christ. Our sins were not just atoned for (covered) by His sacrifice, they were completely wiped-out- sent away as far as the east is from the west- to be remembered no more. (Heb 10-10-18)

Breni Sue
02-21-02, 12:13 AM
Originally posted by E-Nygma
You also forget about Moses. It was through his one sin that he was not allowed to enter into the promise land, but could only view it from afar.
Do you think he was unrepentant?

My point is that if we could, it would only take one sin to lose it, regardless if one is repentant, or not.

Let's look at STD's, or pregnancy. Does one not suffer the consequences of their single sin just because one repents? I think you are missing my point here. Yes, we all receive consequences for our sins on earth. That is only natural. But what I was getting at was - just because we are punished in this lifetime does not mean that God has not forgiven us, or that we will be punished in the afterlife. Speaking hypothetically for a moment - If I were to steal something and later repented for it, God would forgive me and I would still have an eternal place in heaven. But that would not release me from the earthly consequences. He would still expect me to turn myself in and accept the punishment for my crime. If a person on death row confesses their sins to God, they will still get the death penalty. But God has forgiven them of their sins, and they will have a place in heaven when they die. Just like Adam and Moses. Although they were punished for their crimes on earth, if they were truly repentant of their sins, they are in heaven right now.

E-Nygma
02-21-02, 01:54 AM
I agree, however forgivness for sin isn't the issue. It's lost salvation. I was just stating that IF one could lose their salvation, all it would take is one sin, whether they repented of it, or not.

If lost salvation were the consequence for their sin, then that means that God wouldn't forgive them for the sin that they lost their salvation over.

And if one wishes to use the Hebrews 6 argument, then the phrase "impossible to renew them again unto repentance" follows.

So, if one could lose their salvation, then they could never again regain it back. There would be none of this yo-yo, re-re-re-repenting, now you're saved now you're not salvation that is seen in many (if not all) churches that believe in the ability of one to be able to lose one's salvation.

VG8XP80
02-25-02, 01:18 AM
Don't we have the Holy spirit living within us as Christians? It is his job to convict and instruct and guide us once He is inside us. I don't think He would let Satan get such a hold of us that we could actually kick God out. I don't think Satan has that kind of power to begin with; aftr all, Satan never shed his blood for me.

svensky
02-25-02, 06:52 AM
Originally posted by VG8XP80
Don't we have the Holy spirit living within us as Christians? It is his job to convict and instruct and guide us once He is inside us. I don't think He would let Satan get such a hold of us that we could actually kick God out. I don't think Satan has that kind of power to begin with; aftr all, Satan never shed his blood for me.
I've always understood (perhaps i'm wrong) that satan in effect has no power over us bar what we give him.

Satan can't casuse the elect to fall, only the elect can cause the elect to fall (as it where).

Jason

Hook
02-25-02, 09:52 AM
Thanks cujo95, and others.

My next line of thought is this: If we can not commit any sin that is not covered by the grace of God and the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, then tell me what you think about having to answer for our sins when we stand before Christ. Will there be a sort of "spiritual spanking" so to speak? or are all of our sins truly forgotten?

E-Nygma
02-25-02, 02:03 PM
Originally posted by Hook
Thanks cujo95, and others.

My next line of thought is this: If we can not commit any sin that is not covered by the grace of God and the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, then tell me what you think about having to answer for our sins when we stand before Christ. Will there be a sort of "spiritual spanking" so to speak? or are all of our sins truly forgotten?

Assuming we cannot lose our salvation (my position) then it is no longer a matter of accepting Jesus' sacrificial atonement for our sin, but a utilization of the provisions and knowledge that has been supplied to us by this atonement and our acceptance of it.

It becomes a matter of what we do with what we have been given and not of our acceptance of it.

Our salvation is no longer the issue, BUT what we do and how we live while under the banner of salvation. The sin we do is now under full enlightenment and knowledge instead of the blindness that is caused by our sinful nature. While we are still sinners, the sin we do is now a choice and not a byproduct of our sinful nature.

The unsaved sin without concern or acknowledgement that it is sin. We sin with full knowledge that it is sin. We understand what sin is and it's effects to us and to our relationship to God and fellow believers. Assuming we are truely believers, we can no longer "hide" behind the cloak of ignorance that is implied by the unsaved.

As with Israel in the OT, the more enlightenment of God given, the more responsibility and accountability to that enlightenment by God.

cujo95
02-25-02, 09:26 PM
Hi Hook,

Christians will NOT have to answer for their sins when they stand before Christ, because all of their sins have already been judged, forgiven and taken away forever through the shed blood of Christ. Their will be no "spiritual spankings" for those who have believed Christ as their Savior. (2 Cor 5:21, Heb 10:10-18)
The ONLY judgement for the believer is the Judgement Seat of Christ. This judgement before Christ is NOT a judgement for sins, but a judgements of the believer's works-whether they are "good", of lasting eternal value, or "bad"-not of lasting eternal value.
(1 Cor 3:11-15, 2 Cor 5:8-10)
This judgement seat is for believers only, and is a judgement to determine the extent of the rewards and crowns given to the saints. In fact, Paul actually had in mind the ancient Greek "bema", or judgement seat where the participants in athletic contests would receive rewards on the basis of their performance in the contests-much like our Olympics. Only at God's "bema", some will receive a much greater "well done" from the Lord, and will receive more rewards and crowns, and will be given greater authority in God's Kingdom than other saints.