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Lee
02-13-02, 12:07 AM
Hello,
I was going to try and list all of the different denominations claiming to be of the christian organization that i know of but it would take intirely more time than i have.Seem's all have a different take on what it take's to be saved in some fashion or form and i've heard people say, although we dont believe alike, were all christian's and all will be saved. This is extremely confusing to me and i would be greatful to hear your view's!

Thank's in advance,

Lee

Alladin
02-13-02, 03:08 AM
I also think this is a good question!

I remember my lecturer writing up a list of beliefs from the Nicene Creed. He drew dots amongst the creed and dots outside of the creed. He then drew a circle enclosing some of the aspects of the creed and said that those outside the circle were going to hell.

Tough call with tough implications.

Lee
02-13-02, 07:51 PM
Originally posted by Alladin
I also think this is a good question!

I remember my lecturer writing up a list of beliefs from the Nicene Creed. He drew dots amongst the creed and dots outside of the creed. He then drew a circle enclosing some of the aspects of the creed and said that those outside the circle were going to hell.

Tough call with tough implications.

Hello aladin,
I agree , tough implications but the reality is that some-one is wrong! It seems to me, that even labeling yourself as a denomination is somewhat saying christ is devided. I serve a whole God, yes there are many members in the body but he is a whole God and cant be devided.Confusion is of the devil, the way of the lord is strait and narrow, it is a way of life and creation bears witness to it. This must be a difficult question, noted by the amount of responces, where is the discussion board when you need it?

Lee

svensky
02-13-02, 10:46 PM
I was going to try and list all of the different denominations claiming to be of the christian organization that i know of but it would take intirely more time than i have.Seem's all have a different take on what it take's to be saved in some fashion or form and i've heard people say, although we dont believe alike, were all christian's and all will be saved.

It hink all christian denominations agree on what it takes to be saved (depending I guess on what counts as a denomination).I find the difference between different denomination sisn't really all that great. Any church that teaches from the bible and holds to a conservative biblical christianity (conservative as it sticking to the text and not embracing any old wacky idea that comes down the pipe) is going to be similar in a lot of ways to any other church that does. how exactly you worship may vary a bit and how you get baptised etc may vary a bit, but there aren't that many differences between actauly christian congregations.

However there does seem to be a large number of non-christian (and some apparently anti-christian) groups masquerading as the body of christ.

you noted that there is differences between denominations, but I think you find larger differences between different churches inside a denomination than you find bwteen strongly biblical churches across denominations.

Sadly many churches seem to have been infiltrated with wolves.

Does this make any sense at all :confused:

Jason

Lee
02-13-02, 11:39 PM
1.Baptism: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the awnser of a good conscience toward God and without it you have not been reborn and cant be saved.
2.Baptism: not neccesary, showing your profession of faith before the church.
3.You must be sprinkled with holy water.
4.You must be submerged in water.
5. If you will say this prayer with me and you will assure your place in heaven.
6.If you truly repent and beleive the word you will be saved.
7.Repent and be baptized in the name of jesus and you will be saved.
8.You must get the holy ghost to be saved.
9.You must eat crackers and drink grape juice every so often to be saved.
10. you must not have musical instruments in the church to be saved.
11. You must take soap and a bucket every so often and wash peoples feet if you want to have a part wiyh jesus.
12.You must speak in tongues or you dont know the lord.

Jason,
There are many more but i figured you would see my point, and all of this came from christian labeled organizations. The bible say's sound doctrine saves souls. Because they recieve not the love for the truth that they might be saved, God shall send them strong dillusions, that they might be damed who believed not the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. True christians have been given the ability from God to discern the truth from a lie and it comes from a truthful relationship with God.Many of these topics i mentioned are vital to the operation of God, but are greatly mis-interpeted, or completely pushed to the side. What do you think?

Peace and Love
Lee

svensky
02-14-02, 12:46 AM
1.Baptism: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the awnser of a good conscience toward God and without it you have not been reborn and cant be saved.
2.Baptism: not neccesary, showing your profession of faith before the church.
1 isn't biblical.


3.You must be sprinkled with holy water.
4.You must be submerged in water.

Piffle. This is a trivial difference.

5. If you will say this prayer with me and you will assure your place in heaven.
6.If you truly repent and beleive the word you will be saved.
7.Repent and be baptized in the name of jesus and you will be saved.
8.You must get the holy ghost to be saved.
9.You must eat crackers and drink grape juice every so often to be saved.

5 & 9 are not biblical. 6,7 & 8 are like the baptism one. They are different ways of saying the same thing.

10. you must not have musical instruments in the church to be saved.
11. You must take soap and a bucket every so often and wash peoples feet if you want to have a part wiyh jesus.
12.You must speak in tongues or you dont know the lord.
Again 10,11 & 12 are not biblical at all.

There are many more but i figured you would see my point, and all of this came from christian labeled organizations.
And not everything labeled "christian" is.

Many of these topics i mentioned are vital to the operation of God, but are greatly mis-interpeted, or completely pushed to the side. What do you think?
The non-biblical ones above are not essential. They are false teaching. Many things that are taught as christian are not, I agree with you there, but as I said in my post, the things that divide churches within a denomination I think are greater than the things that divide churches of different denominations, at least where the biblie is taught faithfully.

Could you list some examples of what you consider inside and outside the bounds of christian denominations ?

Jason

Lee
02-14-02, 11:35 PM
Hello Jason,
With all due respect you may be missing my point! Granted whether you feel they are biblical or not, trivial or not, distoted or not, these paticular sects have set up saying that they are right and label themselves as christians, regardless of whether you believe they are or not. You stated that # 1 was not biblical, and my purpose is not to shoot down your opinion but to get you to see why im posting this. #1 stated that Baptism is not the putting away of the filth of the flesh but an answer of a good conscience toward God and without it you cant be saved. 1Peter Ch. 3 VS 21 The like figure where-unto baptism doth also now save us ( not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the anwser of a good conscience toward God). It really does not get much more biblical than this, but i did not post this to debate scriptures, but to bring to light a critical situation to those who may be able to hear it! The question is: Is christ devided, can you be wrong and right at the same time? Is there more than one way?Or is it just an extremely liberal way where you just make up the rules as you go along, or is it as the bible states strait and narrow and few there be that find it?

Lee

svensky
02-15-02, 12:38 AM
you may be missing my point!
No I get your point i've seen it made before.

My point was that as I said, not every organisation that labels itself christian is.

Are the mormons christians ? They think so, but I dont think you would find other christians that would agree with the idea, and if you look at scripture they obviously are not.

So do they count as christian ?

You asked the question, is christ divided. My answer is no, actualy biblically sound churches have very little that really divides them that makes a difference to salvation.

But if you mean by christian, any group or organization that labels itself as such, then I guess from that perspective christ is divided.

But I dont think that perspective is a fair one from which to ask the question.

hence my point.

Jason

Multimom
02-15-02, 11:06 AM
Sound evaluation:

Christ is not divided,

People are divided. Many follow what they term Biblical Positions.

One thing I noticed is that some things you have labled as having "Biblical" possibility for its position don't really have such a possibility.

The one that really stuck out is "You must not have musical instruments to be saved."

I presume you are referring to the Church of Christ which does not use nor allow musical instruments in their churches.

The reason is this. They do not teach or ever refere to any scripture in the Old Testament since they are a "strictly New Testament Church"

As such since the use of musical instruments is not mentioned in the New Testament regarding church then they believe they were no longer allowed after the Writings of the New Testament. They don't believe in applying the entire scripture which isn't "sound doctrine".

Another one is "You Must eat crackers and drink grape juice every so often to be saved." I know of no mainstream protestant religion that supports that position.

However Catholocism teaches literal transubstantiation mean that the Wafer and wine (not grape juice) are literally transformed into the body and blood of Christ. Which fits their tennants of Levels of grace. Each of the sacriments when observed applies more grace or "greater amounts of salvation"

I think at one time the Assemblies of God believed that you couldn't possibly be saved unless you had received the baptism of the Holy Ghost, but I'm not certain that they still hold to that tennant of their faith.

My point, I guess, being is that people put their twist on this just as they do with anything else, this doesn't divide Christ, it divides those who call themselves believers.

Also, I agree with the comment that not every denomination that calls themselves "Christian" is truly Christian according to scripture.

So Again: Is Jesus Divided?

No, Jesus is not divided, but people divide themselves.

Caretaker
02-15-02, 01:14 PM
Very well said Multimom. There were even schsims in the early church, for some of the Jewish believers were trying to impose the Mosaic covenant upon the Gentile converts, ie mandating circumsion. Peter and Paul attended the Jerusalem meeting to clear this up. Gnosticism, the denial of the deity of Christ was another heresy in the early church. Below are some basic tenents of christianity, which I have had on my Word file for awhile. Maybe they will define the fundamentalist perspective, and as in the reference Alladin made to the lecturer and the Nicene circle, those that embrace the tenents of Christ are included and those that do not are not. May God bless.




Christian Doctrine

A. The Scriptures

We believe that the Scriptures, both Old and New Testaments, are the
inspired Word of God and are therefore without error in the original writings.
We further believe that this inspiration is not in different degrees, but extends
equally and fully to all parts of the Bible: historical, poetical, doctrinal and
prophetical. We, therefore, believe in the absolute authority of the Bible in all
matters of faith and practice. John 10:35; II Timothy 3:16, 17; II Peter 1:21.

B. The True God

We believe in one living and true God who is the Creator of heaven and earth;
who is eternal, almighty, unchangeable, infinitely powerful, wise, just and
holy.

We believe that the one God eternally exists in three Persons: the Father, the
Son, and the Holy Spirit; and that these three are one God, co-equal and
co-eternal, having precisely the same nature and attributes, and worthy of
precisely the same worship, confidence, and obedience. Matthew 3:16, 17;
Matthew 28:19, 20; Mark 12:29; John 1:14; Acts 5:3, 4; II Corinthians 13:14.

C. God the Father

We believe in God the Father, Creator and Sustainer of all things, perfect in
holiness, wisdom, power and love. We believe that He concerns Himself
mercifully in the affairs of men; that He hears and answers prayer; that He
sent His Son into the world; that He saves from sin and death all who come
to Him through His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. Genesis 1:1; Psalms 7:9;
Matthew 5:48; John 3:16; Acts 13:17-25; Acts 14:15-17; Acts 17:24-28.

D. The Person and Work of Jesus Christ

We believe in the deity of Jesus Christ, that He was conceived of the Holy
Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, lived a sinless life, and is fully God and fully
Man. We believe that our redemption has been accomplished solely by the
blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, who was made to be sin, and made a curse for
us, dying in our place that we might be forgiven. We believe that He died not
only for our sins, but also for the sins of the entire world. We believe that He
was raised from the dead in bodily form and that He ascended into heaven,
where He sits at the right hand of God the Father interceding for us.

We believe in the personal, bodily, imminent and premillennial return of our
Lord Jesus Christ for His Church and His subsequent millennial reign over
restored Israel and the kingdoms of the world. Luke 1:30-35; 2:7; John 1:1-4;
Romans 9-11; Philippians 2:5-11; Colossians 1:13-19; Hebrews 1:1-3; I Peter
3:18; I Corinthians 15:3-7; Hebrews 7:25; Acts 1:11, 15:14-17; I
Thessalonians 4:13-18; I John 2:2.

E. The Holy Spirit

We believe that the Holy Spirit is not merely an influence, but a divine Person;
that He is the source and power of all acceptable worship and service and is
our abiding Counselor and Helper. We believe that the baptism of the Holy
Spirit occurs at the moment of conversion and is that act whereby believers
are united with Christ as part of His body; that the Holy Spirit permanently
indwells all believers in Christ; that He will never depart from the Church nor
from the weakest believer; that by His indwelling the believer is enabled to
live a godly life. John 14:16,17; 16:13-15; Acts 1:8; 5:3,4; Romans 8:9; I
Corinthians 6:19; 12:13; Galatians 5:22,23.

F. The Fall of Man

We believe that man, although created as an innocent being in the image of
God, fell from his high and holy estate through Adam's act of disobedience. As
a result, sin entered the human race, leaving mankind subject to the wrath of
God, spiritually dead, inherently corrupt, and incapable of pleasing God apart
from a work of divine grace. Thus all men are hopelessly lost apart from the
salvation which is in the Lord Jesus Christ. Genesis 1:27; 3:6-24; Romans
5:12, 19; Ephesians 2:13; Romans 3:8-18.

G. The Way of Salvation

We believe that, due to universal death through sin, no one can enter the
kingdom of God unless born again; that salvation is only by grace through
faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ, and that all who receive the Lord
Jesus Christ through faith are declared righteous by God and thereby become
children of God.

We believe the Scriptures teach that regeneration, or the new birth, is that
act of God by which the Holy Spirit imparts a new nature and a new spiritual
life, not before possessed, and the person becomes a new creation in Christ
Jesus. The mind is given a holy disposition and a new desire to serve God, the
dominion of sin broken, and the heart transformed from a love of sin and self
to a love of holiness and God.

As the believer walks in the power of the Holy Spirit, these new realities
become evident in a life characterized by holiness, compassion and zeal.
Ephesians 2:1-10; John 14:6; Acts 4:12; Hebrews 9:22; John 3:1-18; II
Corinthians 5:17; I Peter 1:18, 19.

H. The Church

We believe the true Church of Jesus Christ had its historical beginning at
Pentecost, that it is composed of all true believers in Jesus Christ, is the body
and bride of our Lord, and is distinct from Israel.

We believe that since there is spiritual unity of all believers in Jesus Christ, it
is our duty to love one another fervently, endeavoring at all times to keep the
unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

We believe that the purpose of the church in the world is to glorify God
through worship, prayer, teaching of the Word, observance of the ordinances,
fellowship, the exercise of our gifts and talents, and the proclamation of the
gospel both in our community and throughout the world. Acts 2:1, 41-47;
Romans 12:5; I Corinthians 12:12, 13; I Corinthians 10:32; Ephesians 1:22,
23; 4:3-6; Colossians 1:18; Colossians 3:14-15.

I. The Ordinances

We believe the ordinances of the Church are two in number and constitute a
scriptural means of public testimony for the church in this age. One is that of
believer?s baptism in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit; and the
other is the Lord?s Supper. Matthew 26:27-30; I Corinthians 11:23-30;
Matthew 28:19; Acts 16:30-33.

J. The Security of the Believer

We believe that those who have by faith trusted Jesus Christ as Lord and
Savior are eternally secure and can never lose their salvation. We further
believe it is the privilege of all believers to be assured of their salvation; that
this assurance rests not in themselves, but in the promises of God; that the
Scriptures teach that such as are truly regenerate, being born of the Spirit,
will not utterly fall away and finally perish, but are kept by the power of God
unto the day of salvation. We also believe that the doctrine of eternal
security should lead to a life of love, gratitude and obedience to God. John
6:39; 10:27-29; Philippians 1:6; I Peter 1:3-5; I John 2:19; Romans 11:29.

K. Sanctification

We believe the Scriptures teach that sanctification is the means by which,
according to the will of God, we are made partakers of His holiness and that,
as we practice our faith and walk in the power of the Holy Spirit, the fruit of
the Spirit is manifested in our lives. Galatians 5:22, 23; Colossians 3:8-12; II
Corinthians 3:18; John 17:17; I Peter 3:18; I Thessalonians 3:12, 13;
Ephesians 5:26; I Timothy 4:5; Hebrews 10:25.

L. Future Reward and Punishment

We believe that at the moment of death, believers pass immediately into the
presence of Christ and remain there in joyful fellowship with Him until the
resurrection of the body at His second coming, after which they will be
forever with the Lord in glory. We also believe that at the moment of death,
the unsaved descend to Hell where they are kept under punishment until their
bodies are raised at the final judgment, after which they will suffer everlasting
conscious punishment separated from the presence of the Lord. Acts 17:31;
Matthew 25:31-46; II Corinthians 5:8; Philippians 1:23; Revelation 20:11-15;
John 14:1-3; 3:16; II Thessalonians 1:7-10; Revelation 21:1-5.

Alladin
02-16-02, 02:09 AM
I think that Lee's question is an expression of a fundamental epistemological issue that has been debated since time immemorial.

The issue can be seen as a continuum and it applies to many more issues than Christianity.

On the right is:

Absolutism, fundamentalism, positivism and rationalism.

These beliefs emphasise the strength of the relationship between the spoken and written word and the meaning of the the same. 'God said it, I believe it, that settles it' type thing.

In the middle is:

Structuralism & developmentalism.

These beliefs say that there are many ways of perceiving the same thing. Different words can express the same essence. Words are the tip of an iceberg and are often deceptive as to what is actually underneath but are essential nonetheless to communicating what is underneath. Many liberal denominations exist because people are aware of their own biases and the inadequacy of words to express some truths. They affirm that we know much more than we can say and say much more than we can know.

On the left is:

Postmodernism, relativism, poststructuralism, empiricism.

These beliefs say that there is no central truth or organising principle for knowledge. All knowledge is in flux. On ancient philosopher took this to the extreme by refusing to talk because by the time he uttered his words he thought the meaning would be subject to change and the biases of the hearer. These people are suspicious of all claims to find truth within a system or set of beliefs becuase they don't belief that a single system can ever correspond to the individual experiences of all people - they find such systems oppressive.

My own thoughts:

I think that there is truth and danger in the two extremes as they are expressed in 'Christian' and 'non-Christian' circles.

- Fundamentalism is good becuase it affirms the power and importance of language, central truth, and meaning in life.
- I think it is bad in that it attributes all interpretations other than its own as sinful, immorality conceived or debased. It does not recognise that it may take many witnesses and much time to establish a picture of truth. It also tends to protect words and creeds that have lost their symbolic power to change lives for many people - forgetting that new words can house old truths, and old words can change meaning in light of new truth.

- Relativism is good in that it challenges us to keep our faith real, to search always, never to become complacent by substituting life for belief about life. It challenges the abuse of power, and protests corrupted systems where corruption can not be seen from within.
- Relativism is bad in that it often takes out the foundation (carpet) from under its own feet. It talks about social justice and peace but has no firm foundation to base these values on.


While I appreciate where svensky et al are coming from I myself am somewhere in the middle (a structuralist?), I am too suspicious of my own motives, the transience and inadequacy of language, and the darkness of the glass through which I percieve life to judge anyone on God's behalf. On the other hand, I am too much in awe of life and my own experience of it to fall into the nihilism of relativism.

Experience has shown me that pure absolutism breeds hatred and bitterness in encounter with others and pure relativism breeds despair and depression in encounter with self.

Just my thoughts,

Cheers

Alladin

E-Nygma
02-16-02, 12:47 PM
What does the Bible say?

It is this book that initiates what salvation is, so it stands to reason that it would be this book that tells you how and what is needed and what is not.

Lee
02-16-02, 02:46 PM
Alladin,
While reading your post, I could not help thinking about that scripture in 1Kings19 Where elijah stood upon the mount and the wind came and destroyed the mountain, and he said the lord was not in the wind, then an earthquake but the Lord was not in the earthquake. After that a fire but the lord was not in the fire, and then came a still small voice and this is where he was found. In the mist of all this fundamentalism, relativism, and all the other ism"s all i can see is the hand of man and alot of confusion. I dont believe this has anything at all to do with Gospel of Jesus Christ and the transformation of a new creature. Im greatful for your responce, you actually dealt with the question instead of driving circles around it and I appreciate that, although im not educated to alot of those things so they did not mean much to me. I guess my take from experience is that so far each day with the Lord im learning and growing and the more I read the bible the bigger it gets so I dont think at this stage it would be wise to put God in a bottle and say this is it ! Its my hope that God will bless me to listen to everything, keep the good and throw back the bad.

Lee

Alladin
02-17-02, 03:14 AM
Hi Lee,

Thanks for your response. I have read many of your posts and you seem quite like some good friends of mine in your way of thinking. In the hope of fostering some mutual understanding and thus seek an answer to your original question perhaps I could analyse a little - if I am wrong or off mark anywhere please let me know.

You strike me as having a very genuine heart for serving God and knowing his will. You trust in the Bible and seek to apply it to all of your thinking. Your posts often include allusions to Scripture. You insert Scripture where others use other words. You often use Scripture in a metaphorical way to give your arguments a sense of authority. You seem to be suspicious of any words (isms) that you are unfamiliar with - becuase if the Bible is all sufficient, why use 'the philosophies of men' to explore the problems of life? I think that you are very genuine and honest and I appreciate that most in your posts. You have a strong and simple faith, 'God said it, you believe it , that settles it'. I think this is great and I think that your faith is more genuine and real than many other's who use lots of 'isms' and theology to appear faithful. I hope this does not sound condescending in any way - I really mean it - education does not improve your relationship with God in and of itself; if it did, then perhaps God would have told us to study apologetics and theology rather than love Him and our neighbours. C.S Lewis (a great apologist) once said of his apologetics, "there is nothing less fulfilling than having felt one has won an argument at the expense of love"

But Lee, I also have a genuine faith. I'm a different person to you, we have different interests and ways of expressing ourselves and our faith. What to you are 'isms' and 'big words' to me are simply powerful ways of expressing my faith. They can be used to strengthen faith or weaken it - just as your way of expressing your faith can. By quoting 1 Kings 19 you are using a Scripture to say that my words do not express the reality of God. I don't take offence at this but I would ask the question:

Do you think that God inspired you to use the Scripture in that way to tell me that my words did not help me to understand who God is?

Only you can answer this honestly. But the answer returns us to your original question - is Christ divided? The problem is that whether the Bible is inspired and inerrant or not, it must be applied and interpreted by human minds. As you see on the debate forum and in the answer to your own question on this thread Christians are selective with their application of Scripture - one says that methods of baptism are a core issue - the other not so; one says that head coverings and the role of women as teachers in Church is a cultural issue - the other not so; one says that Salvation by works is a heresy - the other not so; Christians in the past have thought that the Bible said the earth was flat - others not so; the earth is young - others not so; Jesus will return after the 1000 years - others not so; the sky was sealed by a firmament - others not so; the world was created in six twenty four hour days - others not so; if they don't think that people can percieve things in different way they tend to draw that circle around themselves and say that others are not Biblical or don't understand what the core issues are.

I asked if you thought you use of 1 Kings 19 was inspired by the Holy Spirit because many types of Christians use Scripture in this way. If they can make a connection between a piece of Scripture and a life problem than they apply that Scripture as if God had intended it to be applied in this way on that occasion.

If this is right and inspired by the Holy Spirit then this is good and I have no argument. But what if we allude to Scripture and use it just as others use Shakespeare. If you had quoted from Shakespeare we both could have had a laugh and I would see your point and decide whether or not I agreed with it - However your point would be no more valid because you used Shakespeare. However when we use Scripture we tend to think that if we can apply it in a situation then we have used it correctly and authoritatively - it seems to support the argument rather than just illustrate a point.

I think this can be dangerous. I also
think that it accounts for much of the division within Christianity that you ask about. Many Christian groups in many different cultural situations, from many different backgrounds, with many different interests, many different abilities, many different motives - all applying Scripture (because it sounds authoritative) to support their own perspective - we must not forget that some of the meaning of a text comes from the reader and not just the text itself. This is why I think that there are many divisions within Christianity - the question is, how do we deal with difference?

Must we say (as some have said) that I'm right everyone else is wrong (harmful), or everyone is right and it doesn't matter what you believe (even more harmful) or can we agree that even as the men of great faith in the Old Testament did not have the New Testament understanding ( and yet were loved and accepted or rejected by God), there are differences in understanding amongst people who have faith today - is God still big enough to accommodate them - are we still big enough to accommodate God?

Just thoughts

Cheers

Alladin

cujo95
02-17-02, 03:11 PM
Hi Lee,
You say you would like to hear our views on this subject: Is Christ divided? And why different churches have different beliefs on what is necessary to be saved.

First of all, it really does not matter to me what some church or denomination says about salvation- including my own church. The only thing that does matter IS what the Word of God says about salvation.

We have all these divisions today because too many people are "spoon-fed" by their churches or denominations. The trouble is that they have listened to what their pastor, or church, or denomination teaches instead of listening and studying what God is saying through His Word in Scripture.
People can be like sheep when they just listen to the sheep; when instead they should listen to the Good Shepherd.

Believing in God means to believe God; that is what faith is.
When a person believes the gospel-the good news of his or her salvation through the Lord Jesus Christ, then he or she receives forgiveness and eternal life. (Rom 4:1-5, Gal 2:16, Eph 1:13)

I used to hear Christians say: "The Bible SAID it, and I believe it, and that's that!"
Anyone can know what the Bible SAYS, but it is only as we allow the Holy Spirit to speak to us through studying His Word in Scripture that we can know what the Word is SAYING and know and UNDERSTAND what the Word MEANS.

Vinnie
02-17-02, 06:45 PM
I just wanted to say excellent posts Alladin. I enjoyed them very much. I think we are on the same page in our thinking or close to it anyways :)