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Lee
02-12-02, 11:55 PM
Peace and Love,
I enjoy talking with any and everybody about the gospel of Jesus Christ, and I hold a very strong position concerning the topic of marriage, but out of all the people I have spoken with it seem's there is a great division even in same denomination churches of whether this covenant is a life-time commitment, for better or for worse, through good time's and bad till death do us part!!! Would love to hear your take.

Lee

Breni Sue
02-13-02, 12:45 AM
Matthew 19:3-6 The Pharisees also came to Him, testing Him, and saying to Him, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason?" And He answered and said to them, "Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning "made them male and female,'and said, "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate."

This is what Jesus said when asked about marriage. He makes it very clear that God intended for it to be a life-long commitment - through both good and bad times. I see lot of marriages these days that do not follow that, and rather than work through the tough things, opt for the easy way out. Another problem is people marrying before they are ready or without taking the time to really get to know each other. Once they marry the person and find out what they are really like, they want out. I do believe though that even in these situations, it is possible to work these things out and stay commited to the marriage. If both are willing to do so, that is.

However, I do think there are special circumstances when a marriage should be ended - like a life or death situation, one spouse is being abusive to the children, stuff like that. I do not believe that God would want us to put our lives at risk - and especially innocent children - in order to keep our marraige vows. My opinion.

svensky
02-13-02, 05:18 AM
In an ideal world marriage should be for life.

As kyrie noted I think there are some circumstances where splitting up might be the best course of action.

But on the whole, yes I think marriage should be for life, and certianly there is only one ground for divorce and that would be unfaithfulness of one spouse. Although incidentally, I think in a real sense, abusive spouses are being unfaithful. Of course this could open all sorts of cans of worms.

Jason

Multimom
02-13-02, 10:16 AM
I think the reason there are so many differing opinions is that Marriage should be a life covenant, but Divorce is not the unforgiveable sin.

For so many years divorce was totally taboo and people who were divorced were whispered about in public and private.

Now days its open for the entire world to see. The church long held the position that everything is forgiveable "except divorce" and that is still quite a prevelant belief.

My Position:

We must maintain and hold high the ultimate standard: "one partner for life".

But we must be realistic and minister to those who have been caught in the painful position of divorce(speaking from personal experience.)

innosensefound
02-13-02, 12:57 PM
I absolutely believe in one love for life. But what if the person you think you love turns out to be a monster? Many women find themselves in postitions where they are tormented by the men who promised to love them. When God gives them the strength to stand up against the evil within their husband, should we look down upon them for being divorced? Should we not forgive them for turning to God in their time of need?

But when it is not an abusive relationship, the partnership should be saved. There is nothing that cannot be remedied when you both turn to God for your answers.

Caretaker
02-13-02, 01:36 PM
God established the marriage covenant to be a lifelong commitment to cherish the other as Christ cherished the Church. The iniquity and selfishness of humanity has led to the need for and establishment of divorce. I praise God daily for my "child bride" of almost 30 years. Praise God He will forgive those that do divorce, and so should we, for all have sinned and come far short of the glory of God. God bless.

Lee
02-13-02, 07:34 PM
I dont think any-one would have a problem undestanding some-one seperating themselve's from an abusive and dangerous relationship. However i feel the christian should be obligated to seeking the lord for help for there spouse as long as they are alive, and not running after another spouse. Love suffer's looooong and is kind! Love is not just something that we say, it's something that we do!!! Love is much deeper than the present situation surrounding us and bigger than the earth beneath us. If we are of Christ, we also have the mind of Christ and should seek to walk as he walked, Love as he Loved, forgive as he forgave, forbear as he forbear and suffer as he suffered. But if your not a christian ignore all of the above it does not apply to you.

Peace and Love
Lee

trixiepup
02-13-02, 08:19 PM
i think marriage is a strong commitment, and it should be respected, and it shouldn't end in divorce.

i think a lot of people rush into marriage with an idealized view of what it is. i know that there are people out ther who have married someone when they were in their teens, and are still married and happy at retirment age. but i think that is the exception rather than the rule.

people change a lot as they go through school and other things that are part of growing up. if both people are going through changes at the same time, and they marry, they'll probably end up being different people than when they started. add to that children or house payments or any number of other stresses, and you have a situation that needs to be constantly attended to.

i think a lot of people in their late teens-early twenties don't see the work a marriage takes, and expect things to be happy joyful all the time. or they expect the other person to somehow fulfill them in some way...make them whole.

if both people get married and constantly focus on making the relationship work, they will be successful, because they will be communicating and looking out for eachother's needs.

it also helps if the two people know eachother for a few years before marrying....it lets you see the person in a variety of situations, and hopefully lets you weed out the abusive types.

svensky
02-13-02, 08:59 PM
i think a lot of people rush into marriage with an idealized view of what it is. i know that there are people out ther who have married someone when they were in their teens, and are still married and happy at retirment age. but i think that is the exception rather than the rule.
Actaully I think it is only the exception these days. We live in a quick fix, throw away society, so the high rate of divorce is understandable (but not excuseable).

they expect the other person to somehow fulfill them in some way...make them whole.
To some degree that is the purpose of marriage. Human being are made to live in relationship with one another (and God) so the close intimate relationship that is a marriage is something that should be fulfilling and completeing.

if both people get married and constantly focus on making the relationship work, they will be successful, because they will be communicating and looking out for eachother's needs.
So in effect marriage works if you try to make it work. Sounds like good advice. Pity so few people heed it and rush off to divorce court.

Did you know, that for every year you are married the chance of getting a divorce decreases.

Jason

trixiepup
02-13-02, 11:35 PM
i just wanted ot clarify what i meant with the other person making you whole.

i've had friends that feel like something is wrong with them if they aren't dating anyone. they feel less human. they look for a guy that will complete the part of their personality that they can't achieve on their own.

it's more of a co-dependent type relationship that i am speaking of.

Lee
02-14-02, 12:15 AM
One of the many questions you would have to ask yourself is: If marriage was not for life, why was it at all? If i can take one wife and find something wrong with her and put her away, and get another and things dont work out and get rid of her were does this vicious cycle end. I thank God i have an awsome wife and we are both Christians, but it has not always been that way, but that topic will have to be for another thread what i want to say is that she is my wife until death for better or for worse, hypothetically if she was to leave me for someone else, and married them, then they would be married to my wife flesh of my flesh bone of my bone and no matter how you paint it up, it's adultery and she is still my wife until i die. If God does not bring you to the knowledge in marriage that yall are one and however you deal with one another in reality is how your dealing with yourself and who in there right mind would intentionally hurt themselves in whatever form. If you recieve this as being the truth you will find your-self always laboring to strengthen your partner and ultimately growing stronger in the love of the gospel!

Peace and Love
Lee

Breni Sue
02-14-02, 12:40 AM
A little tid-bit I read today at the dentist office. Slightly off-topic, but still relevant to this discussion:

In America, approximately 50% of all married couples have cheated at least once on their spouse.

That's so sad! :(

And believe me, I have heard some of the lousiest excuses for this - getting even, "missing something" in the marriage, things like that. I'm not saying that marriages are a piece of cake. Trust me they do take a lot of work, and sometimes you do feel like throwing in the towel and giving in. But that is where Jesus comes in. He can give us the strength and willpower that we lack in order to stay commited and keep on going, especially through the rough spots.

I believe another thing that contributes to divorce and unfaithfulness is the "glorification" of it on TV. In most of the shows I see, the unfaithful one is made out to be the victim. And all too often, it is romanticized. It seems to imply that infidelity is OK if you have been wronged or just don't have the same feelings you used to have for your spouse when you 1st married. Happily-married couples are "boring", so to speak. And this is the message being sent out to and picked up by young people. Get married if you feel like it, when you get tired of them, dump 'em. No wonder so many folks these days don't see marriage as a life-long commitment. Look at what they are exposed to. For this reason, I think it is even more imperative to have Christ as the foundation of any relationship.

trixiepup
02-14-02, 03:21 AM
i find it interesting that it's always the guy portrayed as getting tired of the wife and getting a new one. i think it's just as likely that the woman gets tired of the guy...it's just not talked about as much, or shown on television as much.

the survey is interesting, but i think it needs to be taken with a grain of salt...i mean, what do they consider cheating on? definitions vary widely depending on the person. and you have to keep in mind the people answering the surveys...it could be biased towards a certain population or be too small of a sample to make accurate conclusions....blah blah blah. horrible statistics class...making me think and all....

:-D

svensky
02-14-02, 05:55 AM
i find it interesting that it's always the guy portrayed as getting tired of the wife and getting a new one. i think it's just as likely that the woman gets tired of the guy...it's just not talked about as much, or shown on television as much.


You should watch more Jerry Springer ;)

Jason

Multimom
02-14-02, 10:20 AM
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEWwwwwwwwwwwwwwww


Multimom gags on the very thought of Jerry Springer

trixiepup
02-14-02, 12:03 PM
in my junior college, watching jerry springer was the ultimate in lunchtime fun. about 30+ of us would gather around the tv in the student commons area. it was so comfy, cuz there were these pseudo butterfly chairs that were really nice to sit in.

it made our problems seem so less severe watching all these dysfunctional people being paraded around like circus animals.

but i think jerry springer would be a whole other post...
:p

Breni Sue
02-14-02, 12:59 PM
Trixie - this is just my opinion, but cheating does not necessarily have to involve sex. If a spouse is dating the person, or maybe just kisses them, that could be considered cheating in my book. Or making suggestive comments or anything that goes beyond just innocent flirtation or compliments. In short, behaving in a such a manner which suggests that they have sexual or romantic feelings towards another person. A good guideline here would be - would Jesus approve of me doing this? My answer would be - "no".

I would say that the survey is probably more accurate than we think. Afterall, America also has a 50% divorce rate.

Humble One
02-14-02, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by Kyrie Eleison
Matthew 19:3-6 The Pharisees also came to Him, testing Him, and saying to Him, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason?" And He answered and said to them, "Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning "made them male and female,'and said, "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate."

This is what Jesus said when asked about marriage. He makes it very clear that God intended for it to be a life-long commitment - through both good and bad times. I see lot of marriages these days that do not follow that, and rather than work through the tough things, opt for the easy way out. Another problem is people marrying before they are ready or without taking the time to really get to know each other. Once they marry the person and find out what they are really like, they want out. I do believe though that even in these situations, it is possible to work these things out and stay commited to the marriage. If both are willing to do so, that is.

However, I do think there are special circumstances when a marriage should be ended - like a life or death situation, one spouse is being abusive to the children, stuff like that. I do not believe that God would want us to put our lives at risk - and especially innocent children - in order to keep our marraige vows. My opinion.

I'm not sure I could have said it better myself. It's too bad, though, that in abusive situations both parties cannot seek solace in the Lord. Jesus is there to help both parties, if they would only listen :(

Multimom
02-15-02, 08:35 AM
Humble:

I agree with you that it's sad. But reality is that as much as I love and trust the Lord solice in him doesn't prevent injury many times.

Codger
02-20-02, 11:59 AM
Dear ILJ,

Matthew 19:3-6 The Pharisees also came to Him, testing Him, and saying to Him, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason?" Ö

If you are a history person like me - you might find it interesting that in Jesus day there were two prevailing Rabbinical schools of thought. The more liberal one was Hillel and the stricter one was Shammai. These religious schools originated in the first century B.C. and there was much controversy between the two on numerous subjects. The School of Shammai held that divorce was only allowed for unfaithfulness. The followers of Hillel allowed divorce for any reason. Some of these allowable reasons for men to divorce their wives were: talking to men in public, spinning, letting her hair loose, speaking disrespectfully to relatives and practically any reason at all. Since Jesus was a renown authority they always tried to bring him into their arguments. The Lord sided with Shammaiís school of thought, but also went pre-law in his comments.

There was also provision in Jewish law that allowed divorce if the person fell away from Judaism to another religion. This is what was happening in the Church in its infancy. Christianity was rejected about the time of the stoning of Stephen and many Christian Jews were losing their wives/husbands because of household splits over Christianity. This is the historical background of the comments of St. Paul in his writings.

This is a very broad thread indeed. The sad part of all of this is the Christian divorce statistics are worse than that of the world according to Barna. I think the statistics are skewed because there are more people living together outside of the Church. If you are living together and are not married - you don't ever need to get a divorce - so you donít become a statistic. I think the non Christian statistics are artificially low because of this factor.

The real questions to me is "what should we be doing about all of this to properly manage and secure our own marriages". "What proactive measures should we be mindful of - to preclude any attack of the enemy on our relationship with our spouse?"

Larry

svensky
02-20-02, 04:19 PM
This is a very broad thread indeed. The sad part of all of this is the Christian divorce statistics are worse than that of the world according to Barna.
I've never really been convinced on this. I would agree that the church has become quite worldy in this respect, but what percentage of the population do they think are christians in the first place ?

Jason

Codger
02-20-02, 04:30 PM
Dear Jason,

Quoting Barna 1999.

See... http://www.barna.org/cgi-bin/PagePressRelease.asp?PressReleaseID=39

Excerpt...

(Ventura, CA) Divorce may not be popular, but it remains common in America. A new study by the Barna Research Group (Ventura, CA) shows that one out of every four Americans adults have experienced at least one divorce. One of the surprising outcomes to emerge from the study is that born again Christians are more likely to go through a marital split than are non-Christians.

Using statistics drawn from nationwide survey interviews with nearly 4000 adults, the data show that although just 11% of the adult population is currently divorced, 25% of all adults have experienced at least one divorce during their lifetime. Among born again Christians, 27% are currently or have previously been divorced, compared to 24% among adults who are not born again. (Because of the large sample size involved, that difference is statistically significant.)

Larry

Multimom
02-21-02, 09:07 AM
My first question to Barna, was how did you define "born again Christian". Many survey's ask people "Are you a Christian" and most American's will answer yes with absolutely no idea what the term means. They believe in a God but it has no impact. I would like better proof, because the surveys done inside actual Churches show a much different picture.

Codger
02-21-02, 10:24 AM
Dear Multimom,


...surveys done inside actual Churches show a much different picture.

Would you share some of your sources?

Larry

Caretaker
02-21-02, 06:25 PM
Codger:

Among born again Christians, 27% are currently or have previously been divorced, compared to 24% among adults who are not born again. (Because of the large sample size involved, that difference is statistically significant.)

__________________________________________________ _____________

It would lend greater credibility to the poll if the question was raised, were they divorced after becoming a born-again believer, or were they divorced before they came to Christ?

As you say Larry, the survey is skewed do to those that live together and when they split they do not divorce. Your question is very important:

{The real questions to me is "what should we be doing about all of this to properly manage and secure our own marriages". "What proactive measures should we be mindful of - to preclude any attack of the enemy on our relationship with our spouse?"}

We should encourage each spouse to love and cherish the other as Christ loved the Church, unconditionally and sacrificially. It is important to court your spouse, as you courted her/him prior to the marriage, and most importantly to pray for her/him on a daily basis. By lifting your precious one up in your prayers to God, you are also lifting them up in your heart, many times throughout the day.

My "child bride" and I will be celebrating our 30 years of marriage on the 6th of May, and I praise my Lord daily for my precious one. May God bless.

selah
02-21-02, 07:14 PM
What if the husband has placed his job above his wife and his family? What if she says "I love you" to him and he barely mumbles it back and refuses to ever say it first, sincerely. What if he gives her flowers on the "big days" like Valentine's Day and birthdays because he feels obligated, but won't even give her ten minutes of his time to have a conversation about their days? What if she tries to talk to him about it and he doesn't listen or seems to but doesn't change?

At what point does the emotional neglect become severe enough for her to turn to the option of divorce? Does it ever? How should a woman--or man--deal with this situation?

Codger
02-23-02, 01:09 PM
Dear Caretaker and Kippepio,

Drew, Yes, we still have spit marriages in our day just like in St. Paulís time. Itís always been a problem all through history. There are many within the Church who are struggling within marriage with an unsaved spouse. My mother was one of them.

I remember one story in particular where the Lord asked one lady with severe marriage problems what SHE wanted to do - stay and work with him toward her husbands salvation or leave the marriage completely. The New Testament doesnít say very much about divorce and there are no detailed rigid rules to follow. In each troubled marriage we all have access to the mercy, compassion, and wisdom of the creator - and in him each situation is entirely unique. He is with us for the long haul. Congratulations in advance on your upcoming 30th. Almost a record in this day and age.

As for the situation that Kippepeo mentions, I donít know what the specific answers are - but I do know the Lord has provision for every situation. But the part about Godís programs that I just absolutely hate is the fact that he always seems to want to make changes in us first, and use this to help change our spouse. Doesnít he understand that it is the spouse who is in the wrong Ė the one causing us all this grief. I donít know about you - but I try to avoid all the optional pain and suffering in life that I can.

Larry

Laury
06-03-03, 12:34 PM
kip-- i really like your point. in the situation you described- if that behavior continues, continues, & continues... then i feel that if the woman (or man- the roles could be reversed) really wants a divorce, then hey, let them have it. they shouldn't have to put up with that at all.

i've seen the effects of divorce firsthand; my parents divorced when i was 3, & my brother & i live with our dad. (well, my brother's off at college now, but ... haha) now... i know what you're probably thinking, "aww... why didn't they live with their mom?" or something along those lines. basically, the judge thought my brother was old enough to make his own decision about who he wanted to live with-- so he chose my dad - with nothing against my mom. my mom wanted to keep my brother & i together, so she let me go with my dad & brother, thinking that she'd get us back soon enough. i don't know-- i've just become accustomed to living where i am now, & don't feel a desire for change.

i'm incredibly [incredibly] lucky though. my brother & i are both insanely close with our mom. hot dang (!!)- she's just the absolute best. i don't know what i'd do without her, that's for sure.

everything's not all roses though. i'm still bitter about this whole situation. maybe a bit *too* bitter.. but hey, i don't think you can necessarily blame me.

divorce leaves plenty of emotional scars, though. heh, PLENTY. i'm terrified that i might get a divorce too someday, just like my parents did. & holidays, birthdays, etc? most of the time split up. (not by the court's decision, but by mine) i'll be with my mom, then i'll come back & be with my dad. a lot of back & forth-- but that i don't mind.

i don't really care to get into it all here; it's honestly too painful. i'm not over it, & i never will be. you can say all you want to say about forgiveness & moving on, but it absolutely won't work.

moving on... :)

in certain scenarios-- as in kip's example, an abusive (mental, physical, emotional) relationship, cheating, things not working out, etc-- i think it's okay to get a divorce there.

God wants us to be happy, right? right.

UberHouseWife
06-03-03, 03:52 PM
I believe that marriage is life long promise, and should be upheld & respected by both partners. But I agree with Multimom that divorce is not some unforgiveable sin.

God loves us & while He loves to see couples stay together lifelong, he did provide a loophole if that is simply not possible. It is when one or both people in the marriage choose to dishonor their promise with unfaithfulness, then God gives us that option.

Though I don't think divorce is always the answer in situations of infidelity. even that can be worked out in some instances...

Idealy, marriage is meant to be a joyful institution where both partners give & take & logve eachother unconditionally. Sure it takes work, but the work is worth it! In situations like what kipepeo mentioned my mind goes back to the verse where Paul talked about suffering for Christ. Sometimes that means going from day to day, obeying God's commandments, and maybe not enjoying every moment of it.

Life on earth isn't always supposed to be peachy keen. Sometimes you have to be strong in the tough times (whether they last months, years, or decades)...

I believe that the ONLY loophole for divorce is infidelity, and I agree with whoever it was earlier on that considered abuse a form of unfaithfulness... Any ongoing disrespect towards your partner is pretty unloving & unfaithful. Having an physical affair, an emotional affair, verbal abuse, physical abuse, psychological abuse, constant lying & deceit! None of these are loyal or faithful practises!

psalmsinger
06-05-03, 09:10 PM
Originally posted by Lee
I dont think any-one would have a problem undestanding some-one seperating themselve's from an abusive and dangerous relationship. However i feel the christian should be obligated to seeking the lord for help for there spouse as long as they are alive, and not running after another spouse. Love suffer's looooong and is kind! Love is not just something that we say, it's something that we do!!! Love is much deeper than the present situation surrounding us and bigger than the earth beneath us. If we are of Christ, we also have the mind of Christ and should seek to walk as he walked, Love as he Loved, forgive as he forgave, forbear as he forbear and suffer as he suffered. But if your not a christian ignore all of the above it does not apply to you.

Peace and Love
Lee

Ok let's have some real peace and love here. It's all well and good to take the stand about marriage is for life, but if you're someone like me, then I can tell you its not always that easy. As high as the standard of the Lord is, He knows the reality. I will not try to justify my divorce. But I will say that it tore me in half. You can't make somebody love you. If they want out, they want out. I've done lots of face time over this. I know that I am under the mercy and I'm okay and not bound for hell. Divorce is not the unforgivable sin. I got married when I was 19 and I didn't give two hoots about what God wanted for my life, and I payed for that for 23 years. Yes, divorce is always sin, and always the result of sin. But I'll tell ya something you may not know - sometimes marriage is the result of sin.

Blessings
Dave

psalmsinger
06-05-03, 09:10 PM
Originally posted by Lee
I dont think any-one would have a problem undestanding some-one seperating themselve's from an abusive and dangerous relationship. However i feel the christian should be obligated to seeking the lord for help for there spouse as long as they are alive, and not running after another spouse. Love suffer's looooong and is kind! Love is not just something that we say, it's something that we do!!! Love is much deeper than the present situation surrounding us and bigger than the earth beneath us. If we are of Christ, we also have the mind of Christ and should seek to walk as he walked, Love as he Loved, forgive as he forgave, forbear as he forbear and suffer as he suffered. But if your not a christian ignore all of the above it does not apply to you.

Peace and Love
Lee

Ok let's have some real peace and love here. It's all well and good to take the stand about marriage is for life, but if you're someone like me, then I can tell you its not always that easy. As high as the standard of the Lord is, He knows the reality. I will not try to justify my divorce. But I will say that it tore me in half. You can't make somebody love you. If they want out, they want out. I've done lots of face time over this. I know that I am under the mercy and I'm okay and not bound for hell. Divorce is not the unforgivable sin. I got married when I was 19 and I didn't give two hoots about what God wanted for my life, and I payed for that for 23 years. Yes, divorce is always sin, and always the result of sin. But I'll tell ya something you may not know - sometimes marriage is the result of sin.

Blessings
Dave

Trailerpark
06-06-03, 09:17 AM
Matthew 19 is very clear on the subject. It's not unforgivable (nothing is!), but it's still a sin. I believe that once you have a divorce, it is inappropriate to remarry.

psalmsinger
06-06-03, 11:38 AM
Originally posted by Trailerpark
Matthew 19 is very clear on the subject. It's not unforgivable (nothing is!), but it's still a sin. I believe that once you have a divorce, it is inappropriate to remarry.

Great. Should I get another divorce? :confused: