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Lee
01-17-02, 12:40 AM
Peace to all the brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus!
Posting this to hear your views, recently read a post and it was said that faith was not neccesary to believe the bible, and it came as a shock to me. My undestranding is that we are saved by grace thru faith and that faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen and that by faiyh, even the heaven and the earth were framed and so on,so on ......Would love to hear your views!

Thanks in advance
Lee

Administrator
01-17-02, 01:33 AM
Hi Lee, I think one source of confusion may lie in the fact that "faith" is used in a variety of different ways. James 2 tells us that intellectual faith is not enough for salvation. That is pretty much I believe how catholics defined faith (I think in the old baltimore catechism?) and why there was a misunderstanding when they taught faith alone isn't enough. Luther used faith in a different sense. He used it in the "by grace through faith" sense.

I think we have to be extra-meticulous in defining our key terms in discussions like this otherwise people end up talking past one another.

Vinnie
01-17-02, 02:02 AM
Originally posted by Administrator
Hi Lee, I think one source of confusion may lie in the fact that "faith" is used in a variety of different ways. James 2 tells us that intellectual faith is not enough for salvation. That is pretty much I believe how catholics defined faith (I think in the old baltimore catechism?) and why there was a misunderstanding when they taught faith alone isn't enough. Luther used faith in a different sense. He used it in the "by grace through faith" sense.

I think we have to be extra-meticulous in defining our key terms in discussions like this otherwise people end up talking past one another.

You took the words right out of my mouth ;)

Breni Sue
01-17-02, 02:12 AM
Moved out of ODD upon Lee's request. :)

VG8XP80
01-17-02, 02:14 AM
So, would someone please define Intellectual faith as opposed to grace faith, or whatever?

Multimom
01-17-02, 09:36 AM
VG:

The best definition I have seen is this

Head knowledge vs. heart knowledge.

The 12 inches from your mind to your heart can make all the difference.

My husband and I have heart felt experiences everytime we read the word. However his brother says, I read my Bible every day and I never get anything out of it.

So that pretty much defines intellectual faith as opposed to grace faith.

Lee
01-17-02, 11:13 PM
Originally posted by Administrator
Hi Lee, I think one source of confusion may lie in the fact that "faith" is used in a variety of different ways. James 2 tells us that intellectual faith is not enough for salvation. That is pretty much I believe how catholics defined faith (I think in the old baltimore catechism?) and why there was a misunderstanding when they taught faith alone isn't enough. Luther used faith in a different sense. He used it in the "by grace through faith" sense.

I think we have to be extra-meticulous in defining our key terms in discussions like this otherwise people end up talking past one another.

Hello administrator,
Thanks for yor views, James 2 is dealing with faith with respect of person being dead, and faith without works being dead, i apologize but im not quite sure what you mean when you say intellectual faith its my understanding that faith is faith, if i say i have faith if i study hard and go to class everyday eventually i will get my college degree or if isay i have faith that God will deliver me from my sins the word faith is still the same, why do you guys feel like that the bible says without faith it is impossible to please God? More views please...........
Thanks, Lee

Breni Sue
03-17-02, 01:51 AM
*bump*

svensky
03-17-02, 05:56 AM
On a slight tanget to the discussion so far, have you ever noticed how little faith is required to be a christian ? (In a good way)

Jason

Lawrence
03-22-02, 07:48 PM
1 Cor 12:9 speaks also of faith as a gift.

Scholarcs
03-23-02, 09:19 PM
The example about head faith and heart faith are very good.

Lee
03-24-02, 09:32 PM
well, what seperates your head from your heart?

Ashwee
03-25-02, 12:02 AM
Originally posted by Multimom
VG:

The best definition I have seen is this

Head knowledge vs. heart knowledge.

The 12 inches from your mind to your heart can make all the difference.

My husband and I have heart felt experiences everytime we read the word. However his brother says, I read my Bible every day and I never get anything out of it.

So that pretty much defines intellectual faith as opposed to grace faith.

Thats what my youth pastor says... he says that the distance between heaven and hell is 18"... the distance between your mind and your heart, you can know about Jesus, but you have to know him in your heart.

Scholarcs
03-25-02, 04:55 AM
Originally posted by Lee
well, what seperates your head from your heart?

12 inches...:D

Seriously though, in your mind you can think that Jesus is real, but you have to believe in your heart that he is real.

Thats the best I can explain it. Sorry if its not helpful.

Lee
03-31-02, 12:23 AM
Well how do you believe with your heart and not your mind, and when it comes to christianity how do you seperate your heart from your mind ( Im not dealing with philosophy) Just reality, Im sorry but it just sounds like a kingdom devided to me. It seems to me that faith involves your heart and your mind and if there is a division it is the mouth vs. the heart! Where are the thoughts of your conscience located, do you think they are located in the organ that pumps the blood or are they located in the mind?
Just meditations